Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

Larry Lucast · Active Member

Round 3.5 on the '66

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Looks like a really nice used fender you bought way too cheap!!
Actual-factual ss take off too

Anything I can do to help on the body stuff, me, not the shop.

Chat with me in private.

There are possibilities.

Karl

Lost in the 60s · President

more ambition than brains wrote:
Looks like a really nice used fender you bought way too cheap!!
Actual-factual ss take off too
Anything I can do to help on the body stuff, me, not the shop.
Chat with me in private.
There are possibilities.
Karl

The door is an original '67 SS too...no trim holes

Speaking of doors, you wouldn't happen to have nice left one stashed ???

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

At one point I had all exterior body panels from a 66 vert.
Old age keeps me from remembering who got the doors.
Karl

Lost in the 60s · President

more ambition than brains wrote:
At one point I had all exterior body panels from a 66 vert.
Old age keeps me from remembering who got the doors.
Karl

Both fenders from that vert need patch panels in the lower corners, so I'd think the doors would need work too. i'm looking for something really clean that doesn't need any work. The right door I got was really nice, bolt on and fill the A pillar gap.

Lost in the 60s · President

I had both of the doors I bought and the right front fender stripped at Inthermo a few weeks back.

Unfortunately, I discovered some rust issues with the right door, that I originally thought was very nice.

I cut up the original door frame to repair this one...

I cleaned and rust treated the area to slow any future growth and welded the patch on.

I painted the fold area with galvanized primer, which I should NOT have gotten where I needed to do more welding, and folded the skin back over.

The door still had the original seal, that revealed a surprise when I peeled it off. Cut another patch from the donor door, but placed it over the hole, as getting the rust cut out would have made the repair more difficult because of the deep cuts to extract the donor. I did remove the rust with a dremel tool before welding the patch on..

Did a test fit to be certain I hadn't affected the alignment of the openings and then welded the slots I had to cut in the skin closed.

Also welded shut a pinhole in the donor patch I found after I cleaned it in the blast cabinet.

In the process of replacing the corner, I also found a pinhole in the skin. I cut a small backer plate and pushed it behind the skin at the structure and welded the pinhole(s) closed on the skin.

Lost in the 60s · President

I cut loose the skin welds on the door the non-body guy messed up and peeled the new AMD skin off to get the mirror backing plate out for the "new" door.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Were you happy with Inthermo?
Karl

Lost in the 60s · President

more ambition than brains wrote:
Were you happy with Inthermo?
Karl

The parts aren't as clean as I expected and opted not to take more down for now. I have the fender soaking in phosphoric acid to remove the rust scale they didn't touch. When I called, he said their solution was phosphoric, but it's either rather weak or they didn't let the parts soak long enough, although he said they had them in for a "long time". No explanation as to time scale of how long that was. I will say the fender has been soaking for several days now to remove the stubborn rust, so there is no way they are going to be able to do that.

The process did save me a lot of time, mess and sanding discs to remove the 3-4 layers of paint, so it was well worth it...

Lost in the 60s · President

After having the fender and doors stripped of paint, the rust was still present, so I mixed a gallon of 48% phosphoric acid with 3 1/2 gallons of water and placed the dog leg in it to soak. After a few hours, the loose rust fell off in flakes. I scrapped the rust with a wire brsuh to loosen it and kept soaking it for a few hours a day for a couple days. Most of the loose stuff came off, but the deeply pitted area was stubborn. I put the fender in the solution last Friday and took it out yesterday to find it had, finally, come 95% clean. There is still rust in between the skin and brace at the very bottom, but the acid is "supposed" to convert it to a neutral compound and no longer rust. I will flood it with epoxy sealer anyway to, hopefully, completely encase it from ever getting moisture or oxygen to grow again.

Lost in the 60s · President

So today, I decide to try a product I've had sitting on a shelf for at least 10 years.

I feel like a researcher who just discovered a miracle drug. I've had this jug of Eastwood "GEL" rust remover on a shelf for about 10 years. I bought it while I was restoring a '67 GTO and never used it, never even opened the bottle ...
Now that the dog leg of the fender is pretty clean, I wondered if this would clean the heavy rust from the underside, so I shook the bottle and it sounded like water....OK....maybe the gelling compound settled out, so I poured half of it in a pail and shook the bottle again. Still sounds like water. Dump the rest in the pail to see what is on the bottom of the bottle and it's clean... ...this is what they consider a "gel" ??

Well, it's out of the bottle, may as well see if it will do anything...read the label for application instructions. Says to apply and cover loosely with plastic wrap to prevent evaporation and let sit for 8 hours...yeah right, that ain't gonna happen.
I grab the foam brush I used on the dog leg solution, dip it in the pail and it instantly starts to dissolve.. :eek: *** ??? I thought this was the same phosphoric acid as in the 5 gallon pail. Must be a "little" stronger ratio. I get a cheap paint brush and start brushing it on. It does run down, but gets foamy and does, sort of, "cling" in place. As I'm brushing it on, I notice the foam is turning reddish brown already, so I go over it again and the friggen rust is practically falling off !!!

The saga is already long, so no way to make it short, but the abbreviated version is, after 1 1/2 hrs of soaking it with solution and scraping with a wire brush, the fender is nearly rust free !! This is stunning to me. Of course it all looks good, but the real test will be to remove the residue and get an epoxy primer/sealer to stick, long term.
After I rinsed as much of the dirty solution off as I could with clean solution, I wiped it down to let it dry. As I was doing that, it reminded me of the stuff a guy on the Hot Rod forum said he uses at his work that he just wipes it on rust and it comes right off. I turned the fender over and the outside was streaked and had some rust from sitting after stripping, so I wiped it too and the rust just dissolved and came off with the rag ! The fender looks danged near new...:D

jim larson · 2K+ Club

Boy that stuff sure worked fine. Waiting for a picture of the completed repair of fender and ready for epoxy primer.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Beautis!
Is there a neutralizer product for after, prior to abrasion and epoxy application?

The red in the pits looks familiar as an after result from Inthermo.

The after eastwood result looks fantastic almost like being sandblasted.
Thanks for sharing.

Always look forward to your updates.

Just think how much "fun" we would have missed out on if they have used better quality (treated) metal and proper surface coverage in these things.

Of Course, refinish chemistry and technology have advanced significantly.

Good old "planned obsolescence"

Karl

Lost in the 60s · President

Karl, it was supposed to dry on the metal and provide a protective film from rust. Man was that a crock of CRAP !!! I didn't do anything with that fender over the weekend and it rusted to heck. Not just a flash rust on the surface, it is so deep, it etched the metal !!!!! My phosphorus mixture I made up wouldn't touch it. I had to use the Eastwood stuff just to loosen it and then scrub it with a course foam sanding pad to get back to bare metal, this is in only 4 DAYS !!! I did a clean water rinse and went over it with the phosphorus mix, which did dry to a protective film. I still have the backside to do and to figure out a way to neutralize it between all the inner structure before it eats holes in the skin. What a friggen mess !!!

2 hours later, it still looks like I got it protected on the outside.

jim larson · 2K+ Club

What about using muriatic acid. Make a rectangular box out of wood to hold the brace part of the fender. Line with a plastic bag, fill 50/50 with muriatic acid and water. Leave in for about 4 hours outside, take out and dip in a solution of baking soda and water, take out and dry with a heat gun, then dip in a phosphorus mix, take out and dry with heat gun and paint with epoxy primer.

What about painting with petroleum jelly, then rinse to remove the rust..

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Confused the "brown" picture was after eastwood cleansing?
Sooo, you had to go after it again?

POR 15 has an acid etch that leaves a phosphorous coating.
The rear underbody of the Blue El Camino has been bare for 20years, still no flash rust.

Have you tried the commercial "metal prep" products from the paint manufacturers?
Dupont also has a spray and wipe etch also. Can't remember Dupont's new name.

Looks like it reverted back to the same color they were when I sold them to you.

Karl

P.S.

I will usually etch, pressure wash with water, blow dry, re-sand and scuff, apply epoxy primer in one continuous operation.

Pay special attention to boxed and lapped areas when washing and drying. possibly even heat lamp to remove all h2o from inner areas.

Then patch and other body work, primer surfacer.

Finally refinish inner with some form of semi gloss single stage black, same for exterior after block sand.

Now we have a panel that appears like oem new part.

if desired, this is the perfect time to spray rustproofing product inside boxed reinforcements and lapped panels

Can't do much more than that.

Most of this is not new to you but may be helpful to others.

Karl (again)

-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Wednesday 13th of June 2018 07:23:44 AM

Lost in the 60s · President

Yes, Karl, last Friday I used the Eastwood to remove all the rust left after the Inthermo dunk. The fender looked like new and was smooth. I "thought" I could leave the Eastwood on and it would dry with a protective film, like Inthermo left and the phosphorus mix I had did. NOT...it sat in the shop for 4 days and rusted worse than if left in the rain for years. It seems to have etched into the metal, as I had to work much harder to remove the rust this time than initially last Friday and the surface feels textured.

I don't have time to follow thru with the complete sequence all in 1 day to get it into epoxy. This process was "supposed" to allow me to do it in stages. Seems that isn't possible. Maybe after Back to the Fifties, I'll just have to resign a week to getting the raw doors and fender into epoxy to preserve them.

I have new upholstery arriving today for the '62 Impala SS and would like to get that installed before next Thursday...why do I do this to myself ...

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Isn't this fun!

Lost in the 60s · President

Yesterday, I went to Fleet Farm and bought a large stock tank to dunk this fender in and try to get it back to clean metal. I put 4, 50# bags of blast media in one end to cut down on the amount of solution needed and lined the tank with pvc. I let the fender soak over night in 30 gallons of water, mixed with 2 gallons of a dual action blend of Phosphoric and Muriatic acid. Nowhere on the label does it state the ratio of Muriatic, so I was guessing a little and it was really strong. It ate 90% of the rust off overnight ! The PITA is, the liner developed pin holes from sand in the bottom of the tank and the solution leaked into my media and attacked the galvanized coating on the tank.

I had to clean out a 55 gallon drum I had hiding in the back of the shop and scoop all the solution out. Then I pushed the tank and liner outside to rinse them and scrub the tank to remove the solution residue.

THEN I went to Menard's and bought a 10x20ft roll of rubber roofing for a liner. The pvc was 3 mil, the rubber is 45 mil, I don't think that is going to puncture from a grain of sand in the bottom of the tank.

I siphoned the solution back into the tank and added another 15 gallons of water. The solution was too strong, so this should slow the process a little and give me better time control over it. I then covered it with a tarp to contain the fumes. I'll get back on this Monday. Weekends are too busy to be messing with cars.

I have been soaking the media in clean water to try to remove the solution and then let it dry. I might be able to use it, as the black diamond is not like sand that absorbs moisture.

jim larson · 2K+ Club

Looks like quite a project. I've done the muriatic acid and water thing a few times but didn't blend it with phosphoric acid. Alway neutralized with baking soda a water, it would tend to flash rust unless you got it dry with a heat gun. Nothing this big. To bad there isn't a big plastic tank available. Big plastic barrels are around. I saw a post where big parts like this were put in a tank with molasses and left for a longer period of time to remove the rust. How did that cover work at keeping the fumes inside, so they didn't start to rust everything in the shop? I used old brick blocks and stones to take up space when I did this to the seat frames and spring on my bucket seat. Then etched primed them and painted them. That was 12 years ago and everything still looks fine.

Lost in the 60s · President

I looked for a plastic tank but didn't find anything similar in shape to this and when I did, they were 3-$400 and had to be ordered, sometimes with shipping. The galvanized was $110.

The blended acids came that way in the bottle. I just wish it had stated the mix ratio, I probably would've only dumped 1 gallon in to begin with.

jim larson · 2K+ Club

This looks like a fair deal. https://www.zoro.com/rubbermaid-stock-tank-l-58-w-39-cap-150-gal-black-fg424500bla/i/G3125175/#specifications

How much is a gallon of that stuff?

Lost in the 60s · President

jim larson wrote:
This looks like a fair deal. https://www.zoro.com/rubbermaid-stock-tank-l-58-w-39-cap-150-gal-black-fg424500bla/i/G3125175/#specifications
How much is a gallon of that stuff?

The fender is 60" long and that tank is 47" at the bottom, 58" at the outside top. My tank is 6'.

Gallon of the Dual Force, with the Muriatic, is less tan $10 at Fleet Farm. The rinse is only Phosphoric acid and is about $13.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Mitch,

Know you are busy, being "retired"

There is no set agenda for January Bow Tie Brunch.

is there some part of this project where 4-5 hours, some helpers and a Body shop with booth would be of value?

You have done so much for the "club" and many members, time for some of us to "Pay it Back"

You and I could also spend some time prepping and doing some chemical filler work prior.

Karl

Lost in the 60s · President

more ambition than brains wrote:
Mitch,

Know you are busy, being "retired"

There is no set agenda for January Bow Tie Brunch.

is there some part of this project where 4-5 hours, some helpers and a Body shop with booth would be of value?

You have done so much for the "club" and many members, time for some of us to "Pay it Back"

You and I could also spend some time prepping and doing some chemical filler work prior.

Karl

Thanks Karl, we can look at that when it gets a little closer. I MAY have a highly respected painter to take my car in before then, but he is very busy. If he gets it painted, the tech session could involve installing the headliner. I'll know more in the next 4-5 weeks.

I'm about as "retired" as a third time retread tire...

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Lost in the 60s · President

Been quite a while again and I have been picking away at some of the items needed to get the car ready for the next painter. I did get the right fender cleaned up with the acid bath again and it is sitting waiting to be cleaned of the preservation coat. I also ran all the small parts I had that would fit thru the blast cabinet with crushed glass. I bought that at Northern and really like it. It removes paint very well, but is softer than Black Diamond and doesn't leave the surface as rough. Nice stuff for a cabinet and no more expensive than BD. I had to set up my blast table outside for the front valance, dash and cowl panel, but they are all ready for the next go around.

Lost in the 60s · President

Just a note about the front fender sitting in the phosphoric coating. It STILL looks like the previous pic, some 7 months later...

I went "shopping" Friday for a couple NOS parts. I have a right side fender trim but needed a left and could only find sets, when looking over a year ago. These came up local, so bought them and will re-sell the right I have. I SHOULD have looked for a left only before I bought these as I see there are 3-4 on eBay right now...