Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

SShink · 3K+ Club

402 BBC Freshen & 200-4R Trans Swap Post

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

Performer RPM intake and grind the name off, some folks have the oil fill tube installed in as well for a real stock look.
Scorpion 1.6 Roller rockers I just found out have 2 rockers that are made to fit under stock valve covers.
Convert stock dist form points to electronic.

Yes I did have many of these ideas on the board at one time, and have installed 2 of the 3 in other engines.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

I would do something about those rusty headers as well.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Chris R wrote:

I would do something about those rusty headers as well.

They are gone. Going to exhaust manifolds to minimize the combustion noise and all the problems associated with headers. See pic.

67ss · 1K+ Club

I'm guessing you have checked the deck pad and this is not the number matching motor for the car?

I would also pull of a few main caps and rod bearings to see how they look. Would be easy to replace them now so you know what you have.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

SShink wrote:

Chris R wrote:

I would do something about those rusty headers as well.

They are gone. Going to exhaust manifolds to minimize the combustion noise and all the problems associated with headers. See pic.

Ah thats right. I had forgotten you had mentioned that before.

SShink · 3K+ Club

67ss wrote:

I'm guessing you have checked the deck pad and this is not the number matching motor for the car?

I would also pull of a few main caps and rod bearings to see how they look. Would be easy to replace them now so you know what you have.

I didn't even check the pad because when I bought the car I was told it was originally a 350 c.i. car. I'll double check it, but I'd be very surprised. The 402 is a late '71 dated block & heads, so it is 'period correct'.

I'll probably not disassemble much more since so far everything looks really good other than the 1 burnt exhaust valve.

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

Rings bearings and gaskets are not that expensive. Now lets see last engine I put in and was told hey this engine was in a great running 66 had SERIOUS bottom end damage that was discovered when I had it pulled back out. At the very least a set of Moly rings will not break the bank at about $50-75 a set and just get the full gasket set at the same time way cheaper then individual sets.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Since I'm not paying for it, I'll agree with Dave... why not freshen up the bottom end while you've got it that far apart? I think we can play the "while it's apart" game until we've talked you into pulling the body off the frame. biggrin

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

Derek69SS wrote:

Since I'm not paying for it, I'll agree with Dave... why not freshen up the bottom end while you've got it that far apart? I think we can play the "while it's apart" game until we've talked you into pulling the body off the frame.

Derek, WILL YOU STOP REVEALING THE SECRETS OF THE GAME!!!! I hate it when you give away the end of the post before we talk him into it!

SShink · 3K+ Club

Calm down guys... no body off resto's for me! I get nervous just taking the hood off and putting it back on! LOL

Other than some cleanup on the piston tops, I plan to leave the motor together. It really does look good inside and the parts are happy with each other. I've done the 'while it's opened up' thing before and caused more problems than I had originally.

And, the $50 here, $50 there adds up until the next thing you know it's another grand or so... I hadn't planned on the valve job, so that's already outside of the budget. It IS easy to spend somebody else's $$! wink

Dave, I do plan on getting a gasket 'set' since I'm pulling the water pump, oil pan, valve covers, etc. so that I can seal it all up.

Lost in the 60s · President

Come on...........you KNOW you want to pull the clip to rebuild the steering and suspension, paint it all and the inner fenders/firewall. I'll be down tomorrow to help yank the clip. I'm really good at tearing them apart and it shouldn't take more than a couple hours to make a huge mess in your shop.....

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

Just think, we had the Sliver Mullet torn down to just a body on the frame in a tick over 4 hrs. You really should have seen the look on Mikes' face when he saw his car stripped down to nothing. Wanted to know if this was a joke or initiatiation to the club yes it was both. So Stan be a man and let the guys from the club stop over to help you, we promise not to do anything we haven't already done before to other club members.

Can't you just feel the love?

bowtie · Secretary

I have a sawzall.....

Lost in the 60s · President

bowtie wrote:
I have a sawzall.....

Way too slow and noisy. I'll bring the Plasma.....

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Lost in the 60s wrote:

bowtie wrote:
I have a sawzall.....

Way too slow and noisy. I'll bring the Plasma.....

Noisy...yes. But with a good 12" blade, you can go through the rockers and window pillars pretty fast or any boxed metal structure.

Don't worry Stan, we wont chop it up unless you want a convertible. I can strip it down to the bone and have every nut, bolt or washer in jars and all the parts in boxes within a day if you like.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Oh, oh, I wanna play too. Are you going to clean up the block and put a nice coat of VHT Chevy orange on it? I would while you have the chance. Also, if your going to do that, you cant have other grungy parts under the hood with a nice clean painted engine. They will stick out like a sore thumb. So your probably going to want to clean up a bunch of other parts and paint those too now. Brake booster and master cyl. Various engine brackets. Etc.

You cant have a frame thats visible from under the hood un-painted so you should probably get some Por-15 and put a nice coat of chassis black while you have the room. Well almost enough room. The fenders and fender wells get in the way of really getting in there and getting all the grime off the frame so you can get that Por-15 even. I suggest pulling the fenders and core support as well. Since the core support is off. You can have that and all of its brackets powdercoated. However, the suspension and steering components are also in the way of getting that Por-15 nicely even so it looks like your going to have to pull those off as well now. Hey, since those will be off, might as well sandblast and coat those as well and replace any loose parts you find.

Looks like your going to be investing in some paint. biggrin

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

Thats how we started with Mike and his entire summer project. Did have to tell him only the really cool people crawl under and remove ALL the undercoating off the car. So stan between Jamie and myself we can sandblast most everything and I still have primer and ST1202 semigloss black as well as some POR15 left.

As far as the engine goes for preping for paint it only took Chris 8hrs and loads of roloc discs to get that done. Do have to say it was as smooth as glass when done with no hint of old paint any place on the engine.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Sorry guys... this is a 'driver' quality car and not a frame off (someday maybe). I'd just like to get it reliable to drive all next spring/summer without having to yank a tranny 4 times, swap engines, convert auto to 4 speed, etc. that have happened the past 2 summers. I just want to enjoy it. biggrin

It will be a basic scuff and rattle can restore for now, but I've had lots of experience with that method and it usually turns out pretty nice... at least for a driver.

Lost in the 60s · President

SShink wrote:
Sorry guys... this is a 'driver' quality car. I'd just like to get it reliable to drive all next spring/summer. I just want to enjoy it.

My 66 renovation project

"Thought I'd start a thread on all the work my 66 needs. I had hoped to just do any necessary brake/suspension/steering work it may need to be safe on the road and then drive it for a few years".

Sound familiar ?? That's how they ALL start. You're wise to not take anymore apart than absolutuely necessary, cause they snowball REALLY FAST....

SShink · 3K+ Club

Dropped off the heads at Murgic's in Rosemount this morning. Murgic's is basically in my backyard and I've had a couple of good references on them. They build and race circle track cars as well as do general auto mechanical repair.

He's going to disassemble them, check for cracks, and then give me a call with what he recommends. He noted right away that he could see that these have already had a valve job done before, but we were still 'metal safe' by installing hardened seats. Ballpark estimate is $450-500 total for the pair.

I searched new assembled aluminum BBC heads, and the least expensive I found was $1100. So, I think it makes sense to rebuild these.

I called Competition Engines in Eagan, and they were close in the estimate but about $50-75 higher. I'm sure either one would be good. Murgic's is just so darn close it is hard to overlook.

I'll update once I get the firm quote. He's really quick right now and could have them done in a week or so, but I don't need them that quick as I'm waiting on the trans rebuild for Feb. 1st.

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

SShink wrote:

Sorry guys... this is a 'driver' quality car and not a frame off (someday maybe). I'd just like to get it reliable to drive all next spring/summer without having to yank a tranny 4 times, swap engines, convert auto to 4 speed, etc. that have happened the past 2 summers. I just want to enjoy it.

It will be a basic scuff and rattle can restore for now, but I've had lots of experience with that method and it usually turns out pretty nice... at least for a driver.

YOUR NO FUN STAN!!!!!!!!

SShink · 3K+ Club

Dave Seitz wrote:

YOUR NO FUN STAN!!!!!!!!

I'm just trying to stay out of the 'cars apart' club for more than 4 months!!! biggrin

SShink · 3K+ Club

I now have a short block. Pulled the oil pan, balancer, & timing cover.

Some interesting things:

-The oil pickup is not welded to the pump. Will take care of that before reassembly
-Everything looks good on the bottom end. The connecting rods are stamped, so this has been apart before (no surprise)
-The thermostat was broken 'open' which explains why it took a long time to get up to temp. Never overheated though!
-The intake manifold has a 1994 casting date which I think dates the last time work was done on this engine to that period.
-The intake has a strange symbol on the underside (see pic)
-It has a Comp Cams cam that is stamped 'HO' and that's all I can see. I'll call them tomorrow to see if that means anything from the mid 90's cams.
-The engine block has 'Hi Perf' cast into it below the cam. Not sure if that means anything or not

Now that I've got it this far apart... thoughts of a different cam/lifters/springs come to mind. I'll be doing some research on TC tonight!

Taking some brackets, fan, intake, etc. tomorrow to have blasted and powder coated.

-- Edited by SShink on Thursday 30th of December 2010 07:08:08 PM

Chris R · 2K+ Club

SShink wrote:

Dave Seitz wrote:

YOUR NO FUN STAN!!!!!!!!

I'm just trying to stay out of the 'cars apart' club for more than 4 months!!!

Daves been a part of the cars apart club since the day the club started. I however, am a wannabe member of the cars apart club. Trying to get to a dollar amount saved before I remove anything from my car.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Stan. The 2161 under the intake is Edelbrocks 4 digit part number for that intake. I googled 2161 and got a lot of results but nothing that would be new to you. The other symbol is likely a mark from thier foundry that cast the intake. I think Edelbrock owns thier own foundry.

Every big block engine has the High Perf stamped in it. The only engines that do not have that are the tall deck truck engines. In which case it would say truck on it.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Stan pull the camshaft out the numbers are at the other end. It should look like this, this is from a small block but same difference.

SShink · 3K+ Club

67ss wrote:

Stan pull the camshaft out the numbers are at the other end. It should look like this, this is from a small block but same difference.

Chris, I wish it had turned out that easy. I pulled the cam shaft and there isn't anything on the rear end... The only thing I see is what is cast in between the journals in this order: H6 22 D2C2 EP2. It's a Comp Cams cam.

I searched Comp Cams and the internet, and the only cam close to this number is a SBC circle track cam which can't be right.

Anyone else know how to decode this?

Otherwise, I will call Comp Cams on Mon.

I'm guessing since this is from the early/mid 90's, they may not make it anymore.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Called Comp Cams this a.m., and they weren't able to ID it from the info I have. The grind is supposed to be on the end, and it's not there. They said I could ship it back and they could measure it and ID it that way, but I don't think that's hardly worth it.

So... looks like a new cam/lifters are in the future. That way I will know what's in the engine.

I dropped off the heads at Competition Engines this a.m. (decided to go there instead since I'm going to have them dyno the reassembled engine). Randy is also going to make a cam recommendation and I will buy it and the lifters through him. He was very patient with all my questions and made some good recommendations.

One of his recommendations is to get rid of the Performer 2.0 intake and replace it with an RPM intake so that it could breathe much better. He said the 2.0 is more for truck motors. I think Dave S. also recommended the RPM to get around 400 HP/400 Torque.

Now on to start cleaning up and painting the motor...

Lost in the 60s · President

SShink wrote:

Called Comp Cams this a.m., and they weren't able to ID it from the info I have. The grind is supposed to be on the end, and it's not there. They said I could ship it back and they could measure it and ID it that way, but I don't think that's hardly worth it.

So... looks like a new cam/lifters are in the future. That way I will know what's in the engine.

I know it's a lot more money but consider a retro hydraulic ROLLER cam and lifter set. You won't have to worry about break-in or special oil anymore.

You can get a general idea of the gross lift by measuring the lobe yourself. Use a vernier caliper and deduct the base circle from the lobe. You need a dial indicator and a lot better math skills than I have to determine duration and ramps...

SShink · 3K+ Club

Competition Engines is recommending a cam similar to the Comp Cams 280H grind. It's a tried and true older design but works well and they've done dozens of these in 'stockish' 396's putting out 400+ HP/Torque all day long. I had a 280H in the white '71 Chevelle with the 396 and it ran great! Killer lope to it too.

It should work good with the 4.11 gears + overdrive.

I told him I have power brakes and need decent idle vacuum and he said it should be fine. If I remember right... the 396 I had before with this cam also had power brakes and I didn't have any problems.

Lost in the 60s · President

SShink wrote:

Competition Engines is recommending a cam similar to the Comp Cams 280H grind. It's a tried and true older design but works well and they've done dozens of these in 'stockish' 396's putting out 400+ HP/Torque all day long. I had a 280H in the white '71 Chevelle with the 396 and it ran great! Killer lope to it too.

It should work good with the 4.11 gears + overdrive.

I told him I have power brakes and need decent idle vacuum and he said it should be fine. If I remember right... the 396 I had before with this cam also had power brakes and I didn't have any problems.

I have a new 280H and lifters waiting to go in my 66. I've had them for over 8 years.
I don't expect 400 horse out of a '93 454 smog engine with peanut port heads, but it should wake it up some.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

I have to go back and look at my cam card. But I believe I am running that same Comp Cam as well.

I didnt know what cam was in my engine either but there wasnt any problems with it. I wanted to make sure I matched my combo so I used that cam. That was matched to a set of fully ported 781s though. I will be going back to the stock iron heads for this engine and will probably swap the cam again if its requires it. Although I recall Comp mentioning it will still work with the stock heads as well. However, I put the stock heads back on and kept the cam in there and never had any valve train related problems.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Chris R wrote:

I have to go back and look at my cam card. But I believe I am running that same Comp Cam as well.

I didnt know what cam was in my engine either but there wasnt any problems with it. I wanted to make sure I matched my combo so I used that cam. That was matched to a set of fully ported 781s though. I will be going back to the stock iron heads for this engine and will probably swap the cam again if its requires it. Although I recall Comp mentioning it will still work with the stock heads as well. However, I put the stock heads back on and kept the cam in there and never had any valve train related problems.

Chris, you should be fine with the 'stock' heads. On mine, Comp Engines is doing a 3 angle valve job, replacing the valves, and installing only a couple of guides. So, basically it is a stock rebuild and they are still recommending the 280H grind.

SShink · 3K+ Club

John from Master Trans called today and the 200-4R is done other than he ordered the 2400 rpm stall convertor from Bowtie Overdrives today!

Will pick it up next week.

Now I got to get moving cleaning up the engine, engine bay, etc. and getting ready for reassembly!!!

Lost in the 60s · President

SShink wrote:
Comp Engines is doing a 3 angle valve job, replacing the valves, and installing only a couple of guides. So, basically it is a stock rebuild and they are still recommending the 280H grind.

No hardened seats ??? or are they already there ?

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Wasnt this a 1984 dated engine Stan? I would have thought it already had hardened seats by then. Maybe not? confuse

Leaded gas was already pretty much a thing of the past by then.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Oops... forgot to add that hardened seats ARE being installed as that is probably what caused the burned exhaust valve problem. They didn't have the hardened seats and ran 15+ years on unleaded as far as I can tell (probably not many miles though as the previous owner didn't drive it much from what he told me).

This engine is a true '71 date coded 402 with '71 402 heads that I believe came on the engine originally.

When I bought the Chevelle, I was told this engine was 'period correct for a '71 since I think the casting date code is Nov. '71.

Lost in the 60s · President

A cast date of Nov '71 is a '72 engine. Production starts in late August or early September of the previous year. What's the build date of the car ?

SShink · 3K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:

A cast date of Nov '71 is a '72 engine. Production starts in late August or early September of the previous year. What's the build date of the car ?

Yep, that's the 'model year'. We had the same schedule when I was at Toro/Exmark.

I have to be honest and say that I don't know where to look for the build date on the car other than the build sheet which I don't have. Any other places? VIN?

Lost in the 60s · President

SShink wrote:

Lost in the 60s wrote:

A cast date of Nov '71 is a '72 engine. Production starts in late August or early September of the previous year. What's the build date of the car ?

Yep, that's the 'model year'. We had the same schedule when I was at Toro/Exmark.

I have to be honest and say that I don't know where to look for the build date on the car other than the build sheet which I don't have. Any other places? VIN?

Data tag under the left rear corner of the hood used to have a date coded, but I don't see it on mine. It would be 01-12 and A-E if it's there. My car was built the 3rd week of September which would code to 09C.

SteveS · Super Poster

Should be able to decode your trim tag to get your build date here Stan: 1972 Trim Tags

Lost in the 60s · President

SteveS wrote:

Should be able to decode your trim tag to get your build date here Stan: 1972 Trim Tags

There ya go....first 3 digits/numbers on the bottom line. Mine is so crammed that it's almost under the rivet and they ommited the 0 before the 9...

SShink · 3K+ Club

Decoded the paint/trim tag tonight:

Built in Arlington, TX
Originally Placer Gold (Code 53 53)
Bench seat
Built in the third week in Oct (I'm guessing 1971 since it would be too late for a '72 model year?)

I'm not going to bother decoding the casting date on the engine as I know it wasn't original to the car. It's close enough for me to be 'period correct'.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Thats my bad. I had your engine confused with one of the other build threads. Although I dont know where I got the 1984 from either.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Stan, make sure you get the correct bracket and attachment for your carb to get the pull on the TV cable correct. John at master may have some suggestions on that for you. Might even bring the car to him and have him adjust it for you to make sure it is all correct. I brought my camaro back to him after I had the transmission in because it just did not seem correct. After I got it back from him it was night and day better.

SShink · 3K+ Club

67ss wrote:

Stan, make sure you get the correct bracket and attachment for your carb to get the pull on the TV cable correct. John at master may have some suggestions on that for you. Might even bring the car to him and have him adjust it for you to make sure it is all correct. I brought my camaro back to him after I had the transmission in because it just did not seem correct. After I got it back from him it was night and day better.

Yep, buying the TV cable/carb plate from Bowtie Overdrives per John's recommendation (Craig S. aka Pushrod also bought his cable adaptor and the trans from BO).

I'll have John D. and Craig S. help me with the initial TV cable setup and then I'll let John at Master tweak it. Plus that way he can check out the rest of the installation in case I have any issues.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Picked up the 200-4R trans and torque converter from Master Trans tonight!!!

Here's a few of the things that were installed:

-Heat treated input drum (needed to strengthen it up to 500 hp)
-Shift kit
-Roller sprag low clutch
-Valve kit 700-R4

The torque converter is an 11" 2400 rpm Performance Torque Converter non-lockup type.

John set it up as a non-lockup so there aren't any electronics required. Just hook up the TV cable, coolant lines, and it's ready to go. He even autographed it (see inside of housing).

He told me this should be a really nice setup with the 4.11 gears and the big block. He asked that I bring it by so when it's finished so that he can check it out and make sure everything is to my liking. I made the right decision going with him rather than having one shipped from across the country and dealing with that if there are any problems. If there are, he's 2 min. from my house!

I tried the yoke end from the driveshaft I got from Steve S., and it fits! All I need to do is swap the diff end u-joint from the old driveshaft to the TH350 shaft and it should be finished.

Now I have to get on the rest of the engine cleanup and painting so that I can start putting things together when the heads are done.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Looks sweet. I can't wait to see how your motor dyno's out. It will make it easier for me to pick a cam for the 396.

SShink · 3K+ Club

67ss wrote:

Looks sweet. I can't wait to see how your motor dyno's out. It will make it easier for me to pick a cam for the 396.

Chris, if all things work out... I would hope to dyno it the first part of Febr. Everybody on the forum knows me... I won't hesitate to post the results! biggrin

John from Master called Randy at Comp Engines regarding the cam selection, and they both still think the grind like the Comp Cams 280H will have enough vacuum. John thought it might be a little on the edge, but should be o.k. The last 396 I had with the 280H had an auto trans and power brakes, and it idled fine and was a screamer with enough vacuum.