Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

SShink · 3K+ Club

Shop Building Dilemma

Jon H · 1K+ Club

Stan, skip the 8' ceiling idea, you will not be happy. As far as steel or wood it seems a horse a piece, I would look to see what the cost would be to finish each and get it insulated the way you want. The heater, wiring, lighting, concrete, etc. should be the same for either. Myself, with all other costs being similar I would go with the pole barn. Like my daughter said when I asked if I should put a 396 or 454 in the car she said dad, go big or go home.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Yeah Jon, I don't think I can work with an 8' ceiling, so really the choice comes down to the framed out 26x26x10' ceiling and the 30x32x13'4" ceiling pole barn. I looked at the Cleary quote again, and realized the interior ceiling is 13'4" with 12' truss clearance.

Lost in the 60s · President

Is the cost difference between 8' and 10' ceilings that much on the 30x30 stick built ? I can't believe it could amount to much more than 5 hundred, or so, for the extra length studs ??

If that cost isn't going to work, I'm with Jon, get the pole building. You can insulate it yourself with 8" thick batting and have a very cozy winter cave. Run perlins like the exterior and nail up corrugated siding on the inside too, or rock it.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Taller is better.
Doubles your space without expanding footprint.
12 foot sidewalls, minimum.
Think four post lifts for storage.
8 foot pallet racking.

Had a Lakeville neighbor put a four post into his garage, had to cut out sheetrock, box up to have clearance for windshield.
Car HAD to be in just the right spot on lift.
We had a basement shop in our early mechanical shop, alignment rack was down there, center support beam blew out at least one back glass I was aware of.
8 or even 10 foot clearance just doesn't get it done.

The building you stored the BU in is 16' sidewalls 14' o/heads doors, No regrets!
Utility costs are minimal if building is well built.

Good Luck!

Karl

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

GO BIG!!!!! Even vaulted if they offer it as an option. You may really like that natural light, but so do the prying eyes. Makes it far to easy to break in when your not home or loss of heat. The tin shed will take cost less to insure for fire when I had mine built so should be the same. Tin roof will last longer then the asphalt shingles, the metal shed will finish out to be about 6-8" walls compared to the 2x4 stick built. If you can find the guys that can blow insulation into the walls from the top R factor is in the 40 range. Door height go at least 10' so most cars or trucks on a trailer can be backed in. Full LED lighting front to back 200amp electrical panel, phone, cable, network with wifi, gas, water, exterior motion lights and dusk to dawn lighting above doors.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
Is the cost difference between 8' and 10' ceilings that much on the 30x30 stick built ? I can't believe it could amount to much more than 5 hundred, or so, for the extra length studs ??

If that cost isn't going to work, I'm with Jon, get the pole building. You can insulate it yourself with 8" thick batting and have a very cozy winter cave. Run perlins like the exterior and nail up corrugated siding on the inside too, or rock it.

Yeah, petty big difference just to add 2' in height with stick built because they need to go from 2x4 framing to 2x6's because of the sidewall and roof loads. Here's the breakdown:

10' Sidewalls	$2,528
10' 2 x 6 Construction	$4,830
10' Oversized Truss Pkg & Delivery	$1,925

Plus an additional $750 to raise the track and overhead door insulation package around the garage door.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

You only get one shot at this.

Build something you can continue to grow into, not be squeezed out of.

Farmington building. 2x8 walls, fully sheathed both sides.

Wanted 16' side walls for resale and flexibility, storage, including Motorhomes.

Heavy duty doors, hardware, tornado straps.

Lots of insulation, very strong.

(still too small though)

I think Cleary or Morton has a post style that sets posts on concrete footings, no wood in ground.

Easy to come back add framing for finished interior later.

Price is competitive, provides height size and options for later.

I was a coin flip away from a Cleary or Morton of that style.

At least the maximum size for yours is decided by ordinance.

Build the best, largest you can afford, to minimize regrets later.

Karl

-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Monday 30th of July 2018 06:22:48 AM

-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Monday 30th of July 2018 07:59:26 AM

Bobs_Place · Vice President

Stan

I was in the same camp you are in when I moved in to our house 28 years ago. I thought I just wouldn't need 1000sqft. However I was talked into going as big as I could and so glad I did. The extra cost is a consideration but if your plans are to stay there for a log time it will be worth it.

Is the amount you stated the additional cost of the 10ft wall over the 8ft or is it the total cost? Seems high if it's the difference between 8 & 10.

Would you need a oversized truss if the building was 26 by xx or 28 by xx?

SShink · 3K+ Club

more ambition than brains wrote:

You only get one shot at this.

Build something you can continue to grow into, not be squeezed out of.

Farmington building. 2x8 walls, fully sheathed both sides.
Wanted 16' side walls for resale and flexibility, storage, including Motorhomes.
Heavy duty doors, hardware, tornado straps.
Lots of insulation, very strong.
(still too small though)

I think Cleary or Morton has a post style that sets posts on concrete footings, no wood in ground.
Easy to come back add framing for finished interior later.
Price is competitive, provides height size and options for later.
I was a coin flip away from a Cleary or Morton of that style.

At least the maximum size for yours is decided by ordinance.
Build the best, largest you can afford, to minimize regrets later.
Karl

Good advice Karl. It's a Cleary pole barn quote in the lead at this point, and yes they use laminated posts that sit on top of a concrete pier. Morton was a good $15-20K higher in price, but they build a nice building.

Jon H. talked me off the stick built cliff yesterday afternoon, and I came to the conclusion to go with the 30x32x12 pole barn as it's bigger and actually less expensive than stick built. I'm getting a spray foam quote today to determine if I want to include that in the project budget.

The wife's only concern is making it fit into the neighborhood since it will be the only steel building style detached garage. I think we can do some landscaping around it to make it 'fit in' better and we have pine trees on the road view so it's pretty hidden.

Here's the rendering of it at this point except the garage door will have windows in it:

Pole Barn.JPG

BLyke · 1K+ Club

As others have commented, if you plan to stay, go bigger and taller.

Lost in the 60s · President

The spray foam insulation should be only after all the electrical has been run. Otherwise it is all in conduit, hanging on the inside of the finished wall. Not entirely bad, but not as neat and more expensive.

A mini trencher next year to run water and power is relatively inexpensive and could be done in a weekend. I did the 200 ft to my shop in 2 days. I tapped into the water line for the house, right at the well casing with a curb stop, to shut it off if necessary.

Electric comes from the house main breaker panel on a 100 amp breaker. With all the power I consume with the compressor and welders, I've never tripped the breaker.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

You can always insulate and finish it later (although it gets harder to do once you fill it up)

I would prioritize max SqFt, 12ft sidewalls, plumb the slab for in-floor heat, and 18'w door.
Everything else can be finished later, but those 4 things are pretty permanent once they're done.

-- Edited by Derek69SS on Monday 30th of July 2018 01:01:51 PM

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

If security is an issue go with clerestory windows, up high.
If you have taller doors add glass in second to top panel depending on orientation.
North light is best, east ok, south and west can be a little "glarey"
No glass in service door.
Use strongest door they have.

-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Tuesday 31st of July 2018 06:21:56 AM

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

I priced Spray foam and it was 3x the price of everything else. A former coworker did insulation and after I put up bates of insulation told me about blown in cellulose. That fills the cavity up and will give r factor right up there. Like all others have said go BIG. Even Jamie with his little 11,000 sqf shop is out of space.

Lost in the 60s · President

Dave Seitz wrote:
I priced Spray foam and it was 3x the price of everything else. A former coworker did insulation and after I put up bates of insulation told me about blown in cellulose. That fills the cavity up and will give r factor right up there. Like all others have said go BIG. Even Jamie with his little 11,000 sqf shop is out of space.

I was advised not to use cellulose with a metal building because they can "sweat" too much. Cellulose is shredded paper and holds moisture, where fiberglass will dry. I blew cellulose in my ceiling before I heard of this and I have rust issues with the metal ceiling panels now...

SShink · 3K+ Club

There you go again Karl giving me shop envy with that size!

Security isn't a concern with the windows until somebody breaks in I guess. The garage door windows will be at the 8' level one panel down from the top, so fairly high. If I get nervous enough I suppose I could put security grates over the windows. Or, raise them up higher to the roof line. I still have the option to move them when I talk to Cleary about the final design plan. I'll definitely have wifi webcams installed to monitor from my phone.

Derek-I would like to go higher on the garage door, but the budget won't allow it. In floor heat is out too due to the install cost. I'll pick up a home furnace/AC unit and will install that.

Good discussion on the insulation types and cost. I got a quote for spray foam and it was $4500 for the walls. Pole Barn fiberglass batting with the same R value is half that price, so I'll probably go that route since it will allow me to install the electrical then add the insulation myself and save the labor $$. For the ceiling I'll probably put up white steel panels and then have insulation blown in.

The final number just came in:

30x32x12

3' concrete apron in the front and 3'x3' pad by the service door

6 Windows 4'x3' each

3' Wainscoting

18" Eaves and 12" Gable Ends

Full Ridge Vent

16x10 Garage Door with windows

Service door with window

Site Prep and Excavation Incl.

4" Concrete Floor with vapor barrier, welded wire mesh support, saw cut expansion joints, and curing sealer (If I ever get a lift, I will do a 4 post)

All at the low low price of under $34K.

Finalizing and signing the contract in a couple of days. Thanks for everyone's input!

BLyke · 1K+ Club

That sounds like a great plan Stan

Lost in the 60s · President

Cave Man construction tech session at Stan's in the future...

Do consider the cost of just the Pex for in floor heat. You can get the rest later, but the in floor is so much nicer than forced air.

There is always the in-direct, like I have, and that is efficient as well.

Dang, that reminds me, I need to take the reflectors down and clean them, and repair the exhaust pipe that broke off this spring...

Git-r-up by fall and I'll rent a corner for the travel trailer...

-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Tuesday 31st of July 2018 12:24:00 PM

Derek69SS · Founding Member

I would strongly consider just getting the pipe in the floor for heat later, and going 18' on the door.

I'm planning some costly remodels on mine due to the aggravation of dealing with the 16' door.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Ditto on the pex in the floor. Even if you never use it, you’ll get your money back when you sell.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

In floor heat should definitely be high on the list for the future. How has Cleary been to deal with Stan? Im starting to look into building a 40X30 myself and their buildings look quite nice.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Chris R wrote:
In floor heat should definitely be high on the list for the future. How has Cleary been to deal with Stan? Im starting to look into building a 40X30 myself and their buildings look quite nice.

Cleary has been good to work with. I'm working with Jon Hull out of the Cokato office (320-286-4486), and he's pretty responsive. He came out to the site within a couple of days of talking to him to make sure I wasn't missing anything, coordinated the concrete quote that's included in the cost, and seemed pretty technical when I had questions about the building. He's going to stop over this week to review the final plans and sign the contract, collect the depost, and we will get in the queue. Looks like the building may go up in late Oct. and if it gets too late for the floor pour, they'll do it in the Spring. I waited too long this summer to get going on the project, and should have done it earlier in the Spring...

I'll talk to him about in floor heat rough in and see what he says. If it's an option I'll have to pay for it out of pocket as the budget is fully utilized with the building price!

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

The talked me out of doing the in floor heat and it was one of the biggest mistakes I made. Even if I had Just gotten the tubes put in and the floor insulated it would have been so much nicer in the winter. One neighbor just ran a pump and a 100 gal hot water heater to keep slab warm and that was nice.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Stan,

Glad you are moving forward.

There are some pex and insulation pictures in the "the building"post in members only.

If there is any way you can swing the in-floor rough in, go for it.
I could not justify boiler right away $$$$ but was able to add later.

If I had mine to do over, I would have set the insulation and tubing deeper, topped with clean sand, compacted a little, poured concrete on top.

Allows for bolting hoist in with no drama.

Karl

SShink · 3K+ Club

So riddle me this...which would you choose to spend the money on? Rough-in for in-floor heat OR 6" thick concrete throughout the entire floor?

I may be making an audible on which company I go with and changing from Cleary to Northland, as Northland offers 6" concrete for $1K more in price and they're slightly less in price than Cleary, so have a little extra to work with.

I'm considering Northland because they are in the town where I live, pull all the permits (I pay for them), and work closely with the city so hopefully no issues with the permit. I also like spending my money locally if at all possible vs. a national company.

Lost in the 60s · President

Absolutely no need for 6" concrete in a building to house cars, but the price savings is a consideration. Ask them to swap in-floor rough in for 4" concrete and see what they say. My shop has 6" concrete with a LOT of rebar and I parked a LOADED end dump trailer in there (that's 80,000 pounds) a number of times, so 6" for cars is way overkill. Just make a point of asking how much rebar they use to reinforce the strength of the concrete.

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

They did 6" on mine since I had a old farm tractor at the time and 4" might not be thick enough. Neighbor did 4" on his but had a bad base and his 1 Ton truck cracked the floor when they jacked it up to work on it. If you get the 4" with rebar and fiber that stuff is supposed to be the best. Ask Jamie Munter what to do he is in the trades and that is what he deals with. BTW if you want to jazz up the front of the building look at Nova Brick you can install it yourself it is mortar less. http://us.novabrik.com/contact-us/components/

-- Edited by Dave Seitz on Friday 3rd of August 2018 08:43:52 AM

Lost in the 60s · President

Dave Seitz wrote:
They did 6" on mine since I had a old farm tractor at the time and 4" might not be thick enough. Neighbor did 4" on his but had a bad base and his 1 Ton truck cracked the floor when they jacked it up to work on it. If you get the 4" with rebar and fiber that stuff is supposed to be the best. Ask Jamie Munter what to do he is in the trades and that is what he deals with. BTW if you want to jazz up the front of the building look at Nova Brick you can install it yourself it is mortar less. http://us.novabrik.com/contact-us/components/

-- Edited by Dave Seitz on Friday 3rd of August 2018 08:43:52 AM

Base prep is the MOST important component of a long lasting and durable floor..

I didn't get the fiber, as it leaves a "fuzzy" texture on the surface that makes sweeping fine dust slightly challenging. May not be an issue for you, but with a gravel driveway, everything brought fines particles in on the tires..

SShink · 3K+ Club

The 6" thick option would be for if I added a lift.

Lost in the 60s · President

SShink wrote:
The 6" thick option would be for if I added a lift.

You mentioned getting a 4 post. 4", with proper base prep and rebar will be fine. If 2 post, you would want at least a 12" pillar set for the post to anchor too...

SShink · 3K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
SShink wrote:
The 6" thick option would be for if I added a lift.

You mentioned getting a 4 post. 4", with proper base prep and rebar will be fine. If 2 post, you would want at least a 12" pillar set for the post to anchor too...

Thanks Mitch.

You mentioned the base is the critical part for concrete. I've been told by a couple of builders that the East Bethel area I live in is some of the best in the state for concrete work since after 4" of top soil, it's compacted sand. I can vouch for that when I replaced a sprinkler head the hardest part was cutting the sod and then scooped out the sand by hand for another foot, so very easy. Hopefully that's the case when I run the electrical from the house to the shop, as I need to go about 150'.

Lost in the 60s · President

You want around 4" of compacted gravel under a slab, not loose sand. The sand will make it easy to remove for the gravel...

The electric has to be at least 24" under ground, so rent a mini back hoe.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Add to the mix of thoughts here.

1. Great base, properly compacted.
2 Appropriate rebar, grid, etc.
3. Concrete only has to be thick enough for maximum expected loads.

Sometimes more is just more.

When we built the Lakeville building, and recently, Farmington we upgraded the concrete mix to, I think 4500 psi.
Denser, harder, less absorption of oils etc.
Lakeville, 18 years and counting, never sealed, painted or even caulked saw cuts.
Not disappointed.

May be worth getting concrete vendors opinion.
Or. maybe Jamie will jump in?

Karl

-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Friday 3rd of August 2018 06:36:36 PM

SShink · 3K+ Club

more ambition than brains wrote:
Add to the mix of thoughts here.

1. Great base, properly compacted.
2 Appropriate rebar, grid, etc.
3. Concrete only has to be thick enough for maximum expected loads.

Sometimes more is just more.

When we built the Lakeville building, and recently, Farmington we upgraded the concrete mix to, I think 4500 psi.
Denser, harder, less absorption of oils etc.
Lakeville, 18 years and counting, never sealed, painted or even caulked saw cuts.
Not disappointed.

May be worth getting concrete vendors opinion.
Or. maybe Jamie will jump in?

Karl

-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Friday 3rd of August 2018 06:36:36 PM

Thanks Karl.

4000# psi is std. which should be good for what I want to do. I don't have any heavy trucks or things like that, so should be good to go.

I made a shift in decision today and decided to go with Northland Landscaping here in East Bethel. Key reason is they're local, strong references, focus on outdoor construction, work with the city locally so know the in's and out's of local govt for permits, and seems like a great guy and a straight shooter. Someone I work with has used him for large projects, and has nothing but good things to say. I'm meeting with him Monday after work to finalize the contract.

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

When I made the runs from the shed from the house to the shed I ran it through schedule 80PVC. That way if there were any issues or problems easily solved. Had a guy with a backhoe come over and do the 100+ foot trench 6' deep 2'wide for $100 cash. Filled in the center sections and left ends open for inspector, told him the kids were playing by it. Had runs for phone/cable/net in one pipe water/gas in another and electrical by itself. Electrical needs to be in Gray conduit per state code. If you are on Natural Gas it is easier to get another meter to the shed, just costs more in the long run.

Dan Williams · Active Member

Ditto what Dave said on conduit from house. No code in Iowa with buried electric. Stupid gophers chewed through wires 3 times before we dug it all up and put in the pipe. I would get rid of windows but I am a little paranoid. Plus I don't live by my shop. Getting camera's and door alarms but it has been there 12 years and nobody has messed with it yet, except stupid gophers.

SShink · 3K+ Club

I'm not sure where I left off on this...but the plan in place now is to have Northland Landscaping build a stick built 30Wx32Dx12 ceilings. I'm meeting with them on Monday to go over the final details and then they'll submit the plan to the city and pour the foundation the first week in Oct.

I'm working with them on the locations for pouring reinforced areas for the 2 post lift posts, and am looking at an Eagle brand lift for the future: Link to Eagle Lift

I'm using a virtual planner, so wondering what your thoughts are on placing the lift on the left (top of the pic) side of the garage to pull straight in to put a car on the lift:

The only down side I can see is the right side post might be standing in an open space when there isn't a car there, but I would likely park one on that side most of the time.

hkgmillette · President

How about moving the door to the bottom corner of the right wall, by the sink, opening to the work bench. Seeing the location the other day, wouldn’t that spot be closer to the house?

Also, what about 2 individual overhead doors? I assume that is a single 16’ wide door. With individual doors, you can pull a car in straight and not have to get in the door and then start to angle it go get it over. Might work out better for the future lift.

SShink · 3K+ Club

hkgmillette wrote:
How about moving the door to the bottom corner of the right wall, by the sink, opening to the work bench. Seeing the location the other day, wouldn’t that spot be closer to the house?

Also, what about 2 individual overhead doors? I assume that is a single 16’ wide door. With individual doors, you can pull a car in straight and not have to get in the door and then start to angle it go get it over. Might work out better for the future lift.

Thanks Hank.

I plan to walk to the detached garage from the 3rd stall garage door of the house, so where the service door on the rendering is placed is closest to the house.

I'm not a fan of single car garage doors. The post/wall between the doors usually gets in the way for me when pulling in or unloading things. I had single entry doors in our last house in Kansas City, and didn't care for it at all with the post in between the doors. Just my preference. I know some guys like them though.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

18' wide garage door will allow you to drive straight in. Figure out how far from the wall you want your post to be, then offset the door to align with that.

I'd suggest going to visit a few garages for ideas, and find out likes/dislikes before you build. There are a lot of nice hobby garages in the club... mine's open any time. :)

ron fuller · Active Member

Stan, I would suggest running the tubing for in floor heat before floor is poured. You could always put the rest of the system in later.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Was thinking of you this weekend and how project was doing.

What is finished ceiling height, including top and sole plates?
12' studs 1 1/2" sole plate (treated) top plate 1 1/2" 12' plus 3" puts you at 147" unless footing is above floor.
Or is the actual finished ceiling height 12 feet on the nuts.

Lift is 142"
Fits, but a little "cozy" unless you gain some with footing.
Or, double top plates.

18' single door would minimize a lot of drama, but would require oversize header, very doable.
Planning on any pallet racking for storage?

Are you 32 wide and 30 deep? Not sure from sketch.
A typical production repair stall is 24' Including toolbox.
If you are 32 deep it may be wasted.
If I missed that detail from earlier posts I apologize.
If you are planning on racking, the windows will be covered anyway.

Really fun to follow this.

Karl

SShink · 3K+ Club

Thanks Ron. In floor heat just isn't in the budget. Forced air HVAC is much more affordable after the building is up.

Thanks Karl. Here's some answers:

30' Wide by 32' Deep-I wanted some open 'play' room at the back of the shop to set up cabinets, a bar, you know...man cave stuff.

Ceiling height-I think your calculation is right that the bottom of the truss will be 12' to the floor, so I'll lose a few inches with whatever ceiling treatment I use. I need to confirm this with the contractor. Either way, the lift should be o.k., but a little tight depending on the vehicle on it.

I'm sticking with a 16' door since it's more standard and less expensive. Again, the budget.

I met with the contractor last night and we finalized the details. He's going to have the city building inspector come over and look at the site just to make sure there's no surprises, then he'll put in for the permit. Targeting early Oct. for the foundation work, then Nov. for the building construction.

more ambition than brains · 1K+ Club

Thanks for the reply,
Be sure to have hood down when raising car.

We had a support beam in Basement of our old mechanical shop.

Took the back window out of an old Chrysler, ceiling was low, beam was lower. Hard on stuff when we forget.

12' makes sense even if they cut the wall studs to account for plates.

Allows sheathing to be divisible by 4'

Farmington building floor is poured flush with top of footing, bottom plates are bolted directly to footing, as would be the norm.

Concrete Laps over in door openings as they were notched out for floor.

Lost in the 60s · President

Anything happening with the building ? Waiting for the friggen rain to stop ?

SShink · 3K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
Anything happening with the building ? Waiting for the friggen rain to stop ?

Yeah, pretty much. weather!

Building permit is approved and the contractor was hoping to prep the site and pour the pad this week, but way too wet. Maybe next week if it dries out.

The contractor still wants to confirm where the septic field is, even though they plan to stay well clear of it on the far side of the lot. So, he has a septic buddy that is going to stop over and see if he can determine exactly where the field is and where the lift line is. Turns out the plan approved by the city isn't even close to what was installed. Go figure... I'd like to know for sure as well for future reference if needed. The only indicator we can find is one of the access line PVC caps that we think is on one of the sides.

Otherwise, the plan is to start the framing the first part of Nov., so hopefully close it up before too much snow flies. It will be 'cold storage' only for the Camaro this season until I can get electrical, insulation, and heat in it next year.

Lost in the 60s · President

Septic systems can be a pain when planning additional buildings/trees/landscaping. Strange the "inspector" allowed it to differ from the plan ??

Club functions next year, with backhoes and pvc..

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

Insulate under the slab worth every penny even if you don't go with in floor heat. It will keep the shop warmer in the winter and reduce heating cooling costs.