Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Schoolbus crash

SteveS · Super Poster

Very sad. At least there were only a couple of kids on the bus at the time. I would guess that's the bus my 12 year old niece would normally ride.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

As bad as it sounds we need to get a handle on texting and driving. Yesterday I watched a woman drive right through two red lights while looking down at her lap; she never knew she blew the red lights.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Kevin, if you remember the farm place with the early 50s Chevy sitting in the woods, that's where it happened... it was their kid getting off the bus.

As someone who drives this road daily, you are constantly having to stop or slow for someone waiting to turn left across traffic... it's way too busy of a road to try doing anything besides looking at the road. I have to stop on this road all the time, but don't have the luxury of being in a big bright yellow truck with flashing lights, and yet that still wasn't enough. :(

jim larson · 2K+ Club

JUST TURNED 69 ON TUESDAY. THATS 53 YEARS OF DRIVING WITHOUT USING A CELL PHONE OR TEXTING. ALL THE STASTISTICS POINT TO CELL PHONES BEING A MAJOR CAUSE OF ACCIDENTS. SEEMS LIKE A NO BRAINER TO ME. I JUST THE MONEY FROM THE CELL PHONE COMPANIES BUYS A LOT OF POLITICIANS.

Lost in the 60s · President

Derek69SS wrote:
Kevin, if you remember the farm place with the early 50s Chevy sitting in the woods, that's where it happened... it was their kid getting off the bus.

As someone who drives this road daily, you are constantly having to stop or slow for someone waiting to turn left across traffic... it's way too busy of a road to try doing anything besides looking at the road. I have to stop on this road all the time, but don't have the luxury of being in a big bright yellow truck with flashing lights, and yet that still wasn't enough. :(

Since they had to extricate her from the wreakage, she obviously wasn't looking at the road and never slowed down. I wonder how many more people need to die before cell phones are banned from vehicles ?? I see this all day driving in the cities. I've about worn my air horn out honking at people to go when the light turns green because they are looking at their danged phone. Of course, then they flip me off because I'm the jerk....

Back in Black · Active Member

It's already illegal to text while driving yet people still do it. A law totally banning them from vehicles would be redundant at this point. Kind of like banning guns. All you're doing is taking them out of the hands of people who use them legally.

jim larson · 2K+ Club

I would like to see all hand held cell phone use while driving banded. I have probably avoided 50 or more collisions with people driving with a cell phone to their ear in the past few years. Pretty easy to spot, add a $500 fine, and a automatic 6 month loss of license. Can't remember if this is accuate or not; but I think I have heard that 28% of all accidents involve cell phone use.

You can use the cell pone all you want; just not a hand held phone will driving a vehicle. I'am also for banning asault weapons; but not all guns. I do have around 10 guns that are all locked.

-- Edited by jim larson on Friday 7th of September 2012 10:07:39 AM

-- Edited by jim larson on Friday 7th of September 2012 10:09:04 AM

jim larson · 2K+ Club

Derek69SS wrote:
jim larson wrote:
II'am also for banning asault weapons; but not all guns. I do have around 10 guns that are all locked.
Would it make you feel any better if I called mine "Defense Rifles"

Seems I've read more stories about defense rifles being used against those defending themselves or other family members, than against the offenders. The one just east of Waseca comes to mind.

-- Edited by jim larson on Friday 7th of September 2012 03:50:19 PM

jim larson · 2K+ Club

s

Sounded like the husband panicked or was afraid to pull the trigger, if you point a gun at someone you had better be willing to kill them. What do you think would have happened if the husband had not retrieved his loaded gun and pointed it at the intruder??

-- Edited by jim larson on Friday 7th of September 2012 06:38:07 PM

Derek69SS · Founding Member

jim larson wrote:
II'am also for banning asault weapons; but not all guns. I do have around 10 guns that are all locked.

Would it make you feel any better if I called mine "Defense Rifles"

bowtie · Secretary

We should ban all criminal acts. That would solve a lot of things.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

That was just a regular old shotgun used against an unarmed family. No scary looking pistol-grips or high-capacity magazines, etc. They were shot while she was on the phone with the dispatcher. If they had picked up a firearm instead of the phone, they might still be alive.

"when seconds count, the police are just minutes away"

The shooter was a classmate of my brother-in-law's. He shot them because he was driving drunk and went in the ditch by their house, and wanted to steal their car to get away so he could avoid a DUI.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

I hadn't heard that part of the story... got a link?

All I know was that he used a shotgun, never heard where he got it from...

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Did a little googling... found this: http://murderpedia.org/male.Z/z/zabawa-michael.htm

The confrontation/struggle story is the killer's story. He also claimed that all 3 people he shot were "accidental" and the gun "went off" each time.

The wife, who survived, says she was shot first in the bedroom while her and her husband were sleeping.

...without seeing the evidence (would be pretty clear going by the differences in their stories - in the bedroom or in the hallway, and if they recovered the gun, who owned it) I'm going to say her story is more credible.

frank · Active Member

Here in st paul if its after dark and your on foot you should be armed.

frank · Active Member

I was amazed when a teenager down the street got shot this summer, the police pulled up in all these odd cars threw on a police vest and pulled out shot guns and machine guns. They were dressed like they were working on there car kinda grubby . But they came in a hurry and a lot of them

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Ive told this story a few times on TC but I dont think I have told it here. A few NCC members that I have as facebook friends may also know this story.

Back in june 2009, one of Michele's closer relatives was killed because an 18 year old girl was texting and driving and rearended here while she was stopped in a construction zone at 10PM at night on 35W up near Forrest Lake when they had that stretch down to one lane. She was stopped in heavy traffic and this 18 year old hit her at 60 MPH. I have no idea how you wouldnt see 1000 red brake lights up ahead and 10,000 yellow flashing construction lights ahead of you. She was carefully dragged out of the car coherent enough to respond to other motorists that were on the scene and was awake during the time the ambulance and emergency crews got there. But a few hours later died in the hospital. Soon after she was pulled from the car, it caught fire and ended up burning to the ground. The incident ended up making all 4 10PM newcasts the next night, since it was past 10PM when the crash happened. Star/Trib also ran the story on the front page the following day.

Back in Black · Active Member

Same thing happened to my parents in Duluth over 30 years ago. Long before cell phones. I was nearly orphaned. Distracted driving is distracted driving whether it's due to using a cell phone, eating a sandwich, shaving, putting on makeup, grabbing your girlfriends ass, or whatever. Let's ban it all.

jim larson · 2K+ Club

Not clear on your inference Keith. It seem to indicate that you feel there should be very few or no regulations regarding use use of a motor vehicle. I don't think there are any statistices that eating a sandwich, etc are involved in as many accidents as cell phones. My mistake in making the statement regarding assult weapons. That had nothing to do with the accident. Seem odd to me that in MN, I can be fined for not wearing a seat belt; but another driver is allowed or even incouraged to use a cell phone improperly to cause an accident that can injure or kill me or innocent passengers.

Back in Black · Active Member

I see, so the only type of distracted driving we should be concerned with is cell phone use? My point is people do all kinds of stupid things while driving. Of course there should be regulations when it comes to use of a motor vehicle. But you can make all the laws you want and people are still going to ignore them. This latest incident is a perfect example! Then what? We're not failing when it comes to making laws. We're failing at education and parenting.

Lost in the 60s · President

Back in Black wrote:
We're not failing when it comes to making laws. We're failing at education and parenting.

And enforcement of the laws we already have. I have to compensate for a hundred idiots a day to avoid crashes but I never see a cop around when I get passed in a no-passing zone or ON THE SHOULDER !!! You're exaggerating the issue when you say we should ban everything. Cell phones are a proven distraction that should be controlled better and with the introduction of texting, it only got worse.

Failing at parenting ....yes, there is a definite lack of that but how well did you abide by all the limitations put forth by your parents.... The progression of bad driving habits is a concern, as our children learn by watching when we don't make complete stops as required, pull out in front of others who have the right of way because we're impatient, tailgate because they're late getting on the road and are trying to make up time, etc. etc, etc. People have a hundred excuses why they should be exempt from the laws. The bottom line is they don't care about the laws and pass that on to their kids. The behaviour on our roads has been a steady decline for many years. I've driven several hundred thousand miles right here in the metro area since 1970 and it only gets worse with time. No one wants to hear about tougher enforcement or bans because they don't want to comply. When do we just throw up our hands and say "do what ever you want".....it seems the police already have from what I see every day.

Jon H · 1K+ Club

The problem with enforcement is the way the laws are poorly written in a knee jerk reaction by an uninformed legislature. How can you enforce the texting law? You can't. Just because someone has a phone in their hand means nothing. Prove they were texting and not dialing a number. Got a search warrant to grab the phone and prove it? I don't think so. The law needs to be simplified. All you need is an inatentaive driving lawand get the courts to go along with it. Personally I think current driving behavior is ridiculous. I also ride a motorcycle and if you think driving a car is dangerous try two wheels. Mitch is right though, the law was made to be enforced against the other guy, I didn't do anything wrong. When was the last time you so anyone driving the speed limit, including 99% of the people reading this forum?

Lost in the 60s · President

Jon, I have a 12 year old Harley with 8,400 miles on it due, in part, to the crazy drivers. We won't go on a freeway at ALL !!! We don't want to leave our son an orphan until he's older.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

About the only thing I can think of in order to solve this is for car companies to have a cell phone signal jammer that is energized when the vehicles shifter is in another other position then Park, or the parking brake is fully engaged to a certain point, or speed sensor based on vehicle movement. So if the vehicle is moving, a jammer is activated preventing any cell phone use. Kind of unrealistic I know.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

How’s that going to work for the passengers?

Lost in the 60s · President

dashboard wrote:
How’s that going to work for the passengers?

It's gonna suck.........they might have to interact with the others in the car instead of talking or texting with outside people. Kinda Old School, huh ??

Ever watch a couple in a restaurant lately ?? many I see don't talk much to each other.......they are busy texting....

Chris R · 2K+ Club

dashboard wrote:
How’s that going to work for the passengers?

Like I said, kind of unrealistic.

jim larson · 2K+ Club

When an officer sees someone using a cell phone they can be ticketed, just like crossing over the center line. If a driver is exhibiting inattentive driving, he can be stoped,asked to see his most recent cell conversion time, if the driver refusses, the officer can acccess those records from the cell service provider to see if the driver was usng his/her cell when the officer observed the inattentive driving.

As an interesting side note, There is a private elementary/secondary school out in silicone valley that does not allow any electronic devices excepte for advanced math, physics,and chemistry at the secondary/college level. Annual tuition is around $25,000. What industry would you guess the parents are heavily involved with?

Back in Black · Active Member

Lost in the 60s wrote:

You're exaggerating the issue when you say we should ban everything.

That was actually sarcasm.

-- Edited by Back in Black on Sunday 9th of September 2012 10:27:27 PM

John D · 2K+ Club

It's not the laws, the enforcement, the education, etc.... it's the (lack of) punishment.

Kick this around - A speeding ticket will cost you around $150, and a few points on your insurance score. WhoopieDooDah.

If.... IF... the penalty for "Texting while operating a Motor Vehicle" was a MANDATORY 6 month revocation of your license & a $1500 fine (and this is no plea-bargains, no negotiating, no lawyer crap, the officer saw you doing it and YOU ARE BUSTED!).... Bump that up a touch and include if you are busted for doing it and you're under 18, you LOSE all driving privileges until age 21 plus the fines & a shload of community service at the ER... would you take the risk?

You gotta make it HURT for it to be effective.

Jon H · 1K+ Club

jim larson wrote:
When an officer sees someone using a cell phone they can be ticketed, just like crossing over the center line.
Only if inattentive driving can be articulated. Most citations are for careless, reckless or inatentive driving violations, not under the new texting law.
If a driver is exhibiting inattentive driving, he can be stoped,asked to see his most recent cell conversion time,
Not so. Officers have no legal authority to demand the phone from the driver under the current law. You know they might violate someone's right to privacy.
if the driver refusses, the officer can acccess those records from the cell service provider to see if the driver was usng his/her cell when the officer observed the inattentive driving.
Do you realize the time and legal paperwork required to subpoena those records? It isn't going to happen. After an accident yes, but not for a driving violation.

Lost in the 60s · President

John D wrote:
It's not the laws, the enforcement, the education, etc.... it's the (lack of) punishment.

Kick this around - A speeding ticket will cost you around $150, and a few points on your insurance score. WhoopieDooDah.

If.... IF... the penalty for "Texting while operating a Motor Vehicle" was a MANDATORY 6 month revocation of your license & a $1500 fine (and this is no plea-bargains, no negotiating, no lawyer crap, the officer saw you doing it and YOU ARE BUSTED!).... Bump that up a touch and include if you are busted for doing it and you're under 18, you LOSE all driving privileges until age 21 plus the fines & a shload of community service at the ER... would you take the risk?

You gotta make it HURT for it to be effective.

I agree, John, but we'll never get penalties that severe out of our legislators because too many of them are doing it and some have kids yet. The problem with "you are busted" is that we are innocent until proven guilty. The cops would need a video of the offender to stand up in court. The courts are so overbooked now that almost every moving violation goes to plea bargain...

Smart phones can be used as a gps now. Why can't that be used in reverse.... if the phone is moving, have the provider block the text feature. They can still call and that is a slightly safer alternative to looking at their lap to hide the phone to text.

Back in Black · Active Member

John D wrote:
It's not the laws, the enforcement, the education, etc.... it's the (lack of) punishment.

Kick this around - A speeding ticket will cost you around $150, and a few points on your insurance score. WhoopieDooDah.

If.... IF... the penalty for "Texting while operating a Motor Vehicle" was a MANDATORY 6 month revocation of your license & a $1500 fine (and this is no plea-bargains, no negotiating, no lawyer crap, the officer saw you doing it and YOU ARE BUSTED!).... Bump that up a touch and include if you are busted for doing it and you're under 18, you LOSE all driving privileges until age 21 plus the fines & a shload of community service at the ER... would you take the risk?

You gotta make it HURT for it to be effective.

I agree there needs to be stiffer penalties for certain infractions but the problem with that is the only reason people MAY choose to abide by the law is because of the punishment. That's great but it would be nice if they chose not to, for example, text while driving because someone drilled it into their head that it's extrememly dangerous! Parenting and education! I'm telling you if parents gave a crap and got off their lazy asses and taught their kids a thing or two and didn't give in to every little thing they wanted, we'd all be in a much better place right now. It was a HUGE mistake for schools to allow cell phones in the classroom. I don't care if they're not allowed to use them. They shouldn't be there at all. Freaking texting...good grief. :(

Anyways....that's all I have to say on the subject.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

FWIW. The 18 year old that killed Michele's step neice lost her license for like a year or so and had to serve (or is still serving) 100 hours of community service in the form of traveling around by someone else giving her a ride and discussing the dangers of texting and driving with classes and groups of people. I dont know if I would say that justifies it but I can say that the law to thier credit is starting to take this sort of thing more serious then they used to. That 18 year old recieved a felony that is right on par with a DWI and she most certainly will end up with higher insurance rates as well.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

That's a slap on the wrist IMHO.

Negligent Homicide and 10 years in prison would send the message home.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

We don’t know for a fact that this person was texting but it’s probably a good guess. When I’m driving, I watch other drivers as much as the traffic around me, I am astounded by the numbers of people I see using some type of hand held device.

JD has some good points, but I’m not ready to make the police, cop, judge and jury on the spot. JH points out the law as written is not enforceable, he’s absolutely correct. Greater penalties in this case fines; will not do much to discourage this potentially catastrophic life ending behavior.

Changing how those fines are distributed would help. When an Eagan cop hands out a $150 ticket only about $35 actually goes to the city of Eagan, the rest goes to the county, state and court system. Raise the fine to say $300 and have that money go directly to the local PD and you will see some enforcement, followed quickly by the introduction of currently available electronic technology to identify RF transmissions and thus identify cell and text activity.

When as a society decide we have had enough of this behavior and determine the costs out-weigh the benefits, it will get some attention but not before; it will take something on the order of MADD to get the attention of our legislators.

We live in a society where people believe rules only apply to others, this attitude has been around for a while, remember Adam and Eve and the apple deal?

bowtie · Secretary

It still comes down to the person in control of the vehicle actually using the device while in operation of the vehicle and not a passenger.

In our state, the driver is still allowed to dial and complete a call on the cell phone. I don't like it, but that it how the laws are currently written. A driver can be dialing a number just the same as texting.

When my kids are in the car, I point out stupid driving behavior as often as I see it, including the head down texting (at stop lights too) eating, etc. It's hard enough to avoid all the dummies, there's no need to add your own inattention to the mix.

John D · 2K+ Club

I was having a conversation with one of our members at CC, and he came up with reasonably easy way to limit the problem. When his kids are ready to drive he's going to give them a grossly underpowered car with a manual transmission. They'll be too busy rowing gears and both hands & feet busy to be ABLE to text or talk on a phone.

I'll also agree with KA... it's parenting and simple basic family values. I've personally witnessed (and wanted to reach over and grab the d*mn thing from the kid) numerous (so called) "Families", all out together at a restaurant supposedly for a dinner together, and the kids 8 & older are TOTALLY disconnected from the group and only concerned with TEXTING their buddies about when they will be "free from this lame-azz dinner out with my parents". About 3 times a minute they're "sneaking" under the table edge and thumbing away...

Call me a familytime-Nazi, but we've let our worlds get too invasive into the sanctuary of the home. At my house dinner is served at 6pm. The phone goes un-answered, the TV is OFF, and cell phones are banned from the area. This 1/2 hour may be the ONLY time in the 24 of the day when we are all together and can enjoy a meal and conversation. The kids (at 17 & 20) still need to ask to "be excused" (if they're finished before the others), and clear their dishes.

Somewhere in the last 5 to 7 years the basic concept of VOLUNTARILY responding to a telephone (or other comm device) has been lost!! You are NOT obligated (by law or society) to answer or respond to the device... but nowadays people seem to think they MUST reply within seconds. If it's important enough, the initiator will leave a message.

I find it funny that on the news there's been recurring reports about how families that spend "quality time" together at meals or family gatherings have better relationships, marriages, kids with higher GPA's, and more general "harmony"... WHO KNEW??!! (Maybe our parents/grandparents weren't so dumb after all!)

Jon H · 1K+ Club

Although I do agree with John D's idea of a stick shift and 4 cylinder car so they don't have time to text, I think that is the final chapter here. I believe everyone here agrees that inatentive driving is a serious and growing problem. Other than teaching our young ones their responsibility I think there has to be some type of reasonable legislation aimed at the problem. Unfortunately you can't legislate common sense or reasonableness and hopefully none of us has to experience a tragedy that would result in a new MADD or similar cause. What we can all do is take a few minutes and write a reasonable and common sense letter with reasonable and common sense suggestions to our representatives in St. Paul emphasizing our concerns and hope they have the wisdom to get it right sooner than later. I know it seems kind of hopeless but if no one tries nothing can get done.

Back in Black · Active Member

John D wrote:

Call me a familytime-Nazi, but we've let our worlds get too invasive into the sanctuary of the home. At my house dinner is served at 6pm. The phone goes un-answered, the TV is OFF, and cell phones are banned from the area. This 1/2 hour may be the ONLY time in the 24 of the day when we are all together and can enjoy a meal and conversation. The kids (at 17 & 20) still need to ask to "be excused" (if they're finished before the others), and clear their dishes.

I like it!

Back in Black · Active Member

John D wrote:
I was having a conversation with one of our members at CC, and he came up with reasonably easy way to limit the problem. When his kids are ready to drive he's going to give them a grossly underpowered car with a manual transmission. They'll be too busy rowing gears and both hands & feet busy to be ABLE to text or talk on a phone.

That's exactly what I got. And I had never driven a stick up until then. We go to check out the truck and my Dad says go ahead and take it for a test drive. I had no idea what I was doing and the owner, who was riding along with me, had to tell me how to shift. I'm sure he was thrilled having this idiot teenager driving his truck. LOL But hey, we bought it.

Back in Black · Active Member

Just got my new phone today. Baby steps.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

John D wrote:
I was having a conversation with one of our members at CC, and he came up with reasonably easy way to limit the problem. When his kids are ready to drive he's going to give them a grossly underpowered car with a manual transmission. They'll be too busy rowing gears and both hands & feet busy to be ABLE to text or talk on a phone.

That was just part of it... only 2 seats so they couldn't haul all their friends around.

It's purely coincidence that all those features just happen to to be found on the most SCCA competitive autocross cars that I will be borrowing from them on the weekends.