Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

Pushrod · Active Member

Transmission Talk

OscarZ · Treasurer

I've been contemplating a 200-4R myself. Bowtie Overdrives has a special right now where the torque convertor is free when you buy a transmission. I believe this is teh company Craig got his 200-4R from. Level 2 is $1400 and Level 3 is $1700. http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog.php?Action=GETSUBCAT&CATID=C

I've heard good reviews about Gearstar transmission but theirs run about double the cost of Bowtie Overdrives. Art Carr is well known too and somewhere in between price wise.

-- Edited by OscarZ on Monday 16th of April 2012 12:20:37 PM

-- Edited by OscarZ on Monday 16th of April 2012 12:24:43 PM

SShink · 3K+ Club

OscarZ wrote:
Stan/Loren - where did you get the conversion to use the stock shifter / console?

Shiftworks

I suggest this kit since it has everything you need:

1971-72 Chevelle

TH700-R4, TH200-4R, 4L60
#SC2243. . . $89.25

For Jon H.

1969-70 Chevelle

TH700-R4, TH200-4R, 4L60
#SC2242. . . $89.25

-- Edited by SShink on Monday 16th of April 2012 01:53:56 PM

-- Edited by SShink on Monday 16th of April 2012 01:54:40 PM

Jon H · 1K+ Club

What are the differences/advantages/disadvantages between a 700R4 and a 2004R behind a 450 HP engine? The 3500 RPM highway drone is getting old.

69SSConv · Active Member

Quick summary, 700R4 will require some tunnel modifications, 2004R will not. 2004R has a .67 FDR, where a 700R4 has a .70 FDR. I went with 2004R for two reasons, 1) I could use the same drive shaft length as the TH350 I had previously, the 700R4 is longer and would require shortening of driveshaft, 2) I did not want to have to modify tunnel.

Ratio's are as follows:

200-4R: 2.74....1.57....1....0.67
700R4: 3.06....1.63....1....0.7

Others please chime in on other differences.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Agree with Loren 100% for the same reasons.

It is working even better with the 3.42's that were installed last winter. It's much more in the power band of the big block rather than with the 4.10's when it shifted so soon.

I'm running about 2000-2100 rpm at 60 on flat roads, 2200-2300 at 65, and 2400-2500 at 70 with a 26" tall tire.

I still have a drone at 55, but I think that's the x pipe scavenging. I'm going to change out the exhaust for something quieter next year.

Highly recommend the 200-4R. Master Trans in Rosemount rebuilt the core I found for around $1500 incl. converter. The ones you find on the internet are $2500-3000. Talk to John at Master Trans.

OscarZ · Treasurer

Oops Craig slipped in ahead of me while I was writing my reply...

SShink · 3K+ Club

I think on mine I had to move the cross member to the rear most holes. No drilling required.

I have a non-electronic lock up converter (uses pressure to lock up instead of electronics) that locks up at 2400 rpm. John from Master Trans wanted to know what my engine setup and rear gearing were to determine the lockup rpm. It works great whether around town or on the highway. Upshifts out of OD smoothly, and downshifts firm around town.

You want to be careful not to get the cruising RPM too low, or a more radical cam will cause surging, or just not be happy at speed.

Here's the RPM calculator I used to see what it run at different speeds:

RPM Calculator

I ran some scenarios for you at different speeds with your gears and an electronic lockup with .70 OD. Looks like that would be a great setup:

55 mph 1766 RPM

60 mph 1927 RPM

65 mph 2087 RPM

70 mph 2248 RPM

75 mph 2409 RPM

-- Edited by SShink on Monday 16th of April 2012 07:29:29 PM

bowtie · Secretary

So do these come with the TV cable, bracket and shifter conversion? Or once it's set will you also need a shifter conversion from Shiftworks?

OscarZ · Treasurer

For those of you running a 2004R who is running lock-up convertors and who isn't? What has your experience been with each?

Stan/Loren - where did you get the conversion to use the stock shifter / console?

SteveS · Super Poster

I had a 700r4 behind a 350 and didn't have to do any tunnel mods, but your drive shaft will need to be shortened , or better yet order a stronger one from someplace like Denny's. I've never had a 200-4r so I can't compare, but the 700 does have a very deep 1st gear. Either one you choose, you won't regret the overdrive.

67ss · 1K+ Club

We did not have to do any tunnel mods for bryan's 72 but on a 69 I don't know if the tunnel is that much different?

Some of your decision may boil down to what rear end gear you have. If it is a 3.08 or numerically less the 700 might be better for the steep first gear. If you have a 3.31 or numerically higher then the 200 would probably be better.

I am pretty sure Stans 200 was built without tcc and is working great. I just had a 700 built at master with the tcc deleted but don't have it in the car yet. But my opinion is if you have an older car and are not running a computer there is no aftermarket kit that really controls the tcc very well.

Bungy L-76 · Active Member

Jon H wrote:

Why is a lock up converter needed vs a conventional torque converter? (Kevin quit laughing.)

An auto OD needs a lock-up converter to keep from slipping in OD. Usually your RPMs will be below the stall speed of the converter when in OD. This will create a lot of heat among other things. So the converter is "locked" and thus no slipping.

Chris P is right on the money. The 700R4 is based on the TH350 and the 4L80E is a TH400 with OD.

-- Edited by Bungy L-76 on Monday 16th of April 2012 09:59:24 PM

69SSConv · Active Member

I am running a lock-up on my Chevelle. It is also a Bowtie Overdrives transmission. I am using the shiftworks kit on the floor shifter, the cable and carboretor adapters I bought through Bowtie Overdrives as well.

I am running a 2004R without lock-up on the Camaro, but have no experience with that yet to recommend one over the other. I had that rebuilt by Bob's Midwest Transmission in Milaca for about $1500 included converter and transmission cooler.

Jon H · 1K+ Club

67ss wrote:
Some of your decision may boil down to what rear end gear you have. If it is a 3.08 or numerically less the 700 might be better for the steep first gear. If you have a 3.31 or numerically higher then the 200 would probably be better.

I am currently running 3.55 gears.

I was told by one individual that tunnel mod was not needed, only changing location of cross member.

Okay, for a transmission rookie, what is the lock up converter?

John D · 2K+ Club

A lock-up converter is basically a conventional torque converter with a (hydraulic activated) clutch inside it. Whenever certain parameters are met - electrical or speed/internal pressures - the clutch engages and mechanically "locks" the converter into a straight-through device (no slippage). Just like a traditional clutch & manual transmission. When the brakes are applied or circumstances (pressures/load) change, the clutch disengages and you're back to a converter.

69SSConv · Active Member

Jon,

The good news with the convert and a 2004R, the crossmember mounting holes are there, just need to move back 2 positions. Not sure where the 700R4 lines up?

Jon H · 1K+ Club

SShink wrote:
I ran some scenarios for you at different speeds with your gears and an electronic lockup with .70 OD. Looks like that would be a great setup:
55 mph   1766 RPM
60 mph   1927 RPM
65 mph   2087 RPM
70 mph   2248 RPM
75 mph    2409 RPM

-- Edited by SShink on Monday 16th of April 2012 07:29:29 PM

Wow, that would save me between 1000 and 1300 rpms depending on speed. At that rate I could hit 100MPH without red lining at 5000! Sounds like it is time to start saving. (A couple of 45 autos to buy first though.)

Jon H · 1K+ Club

John D wrote:
A lock-up converter is basically a conventional torque converter with a (hydraulic activated) clutch inside it. Whenever certain parameters are met - electrical or speed/internal pressures - the clutch engages and mechanically "locks" the converter into a straight-through device (no slippage). Just like a traditional clutch & manual transmission. When the brakes are applied or circumstances (pressures/load) change, the clutch disengages and you're back to a converter.

Thanks John, very nicely explained.

Why is a lock up converter needed vs a conventional torque converter? (Kevin quit laughing.)

Lost in the 60s · President

Jon H wrote:
John D wrote:
A lock-up converter is basically a conventional torque converter with a (hydraulic activated) clutch inside it. Whenever certain parameters are met - electrical or speed/internal pressures - the clutch engages and mechanically "locks" the converter into a straight-through device (no slippage). Just like a traditional clutch & manual transmission. When the brakes are applied or circumstances (pressures/load) change, the clutch disengages and you're back to a converter.
Thanks John, very nicely explained.
Why is a lock up converter needed vs a conventional torque converter? (Kevin quit laughing.)
When the converter locks, it drops the rpm a couple hundred more.
I was under the impression the 700 ate more power to operate than the 200. The 700 is based off the TH400 that has a planetary gear set that eats power and the 200 is basically a TH350 with the overdrive. That's also why the 200 is a bolt in swap versus modifying the crossmember and shortening the driveshaft for the 700.

Bobs_Place · Vice President

Mitch is right, the RPM will drop but, also at cruise you don't need the converter to convert torque. Lockup will also help mileage.
Mitch I thought both 200 and the 7r4 were about the same except for gear ratio, length and a some other miner details.

67ss · 1K+ Club

I thought the 700 was a 350 with overdrive, the 4l80e is the t400 with overdrive. The 200 was just an overdrive version of the metric 200 3 speed.

The other thing about lock up is it also takes out some heat from the converter since it is not slipping anymore.

Lost in the 60s · President

67ss wrote:
I thought the 700 was a 350 with overdrive, the 4l80e is the t400 with overdrive. The 200 was just an overdrive version of the metric 200 3 speed.
The other thing about lock up is it also takes out some heat from the converter since it is not slipping anymore.
Yeah, I keep forgetting about the 4l60/80 series being the offspring of the TH400.
I'M WRONG...

Bungy L-76 · Active Member

Mitch, not the 4l60 just the 4l80E is based on the TH400. The 4l60 and 4l60E are the exact same as the 700R4. They just changed the name. (The E at the end means it's electronicly controlled)

Jon H · 1K+ Club

Thanks for explaining the converter lock up, it makes perfect sense.

I had originally heard the 200 was not as strong as the 700 but that may have been bad information.

Does the 4l80e require additional electronics to be added?

With that said, currently having a T400 with 3.55 gears and about 450 HP, what are the reccommendations?

Bungy L-76 · Active Member

Yes the 4L80E would require a stand alone computer. And yes, the 200 is weaker then the 700 in stock form. But the 200 can be built to be stronger then a 700 even when the 700 is built up. The Buick Grand National guys are using the 2004R and are running in the 9s with them.

Personally, I would go with a 200 as I like the gear ratios much better. I think the 700 has way too deep of a first gear.

Bobs_Place · Vice President

Both 7R4 and the 200 uses a TV cable, it reduces line pressure at low throttle and increases on heave throttle. The 350s cable is used for kick down/modulator.

I think the 1st & 2nd ratios are very close between the 350 and the 700. Because of the the reduced line pressure the trans should consume less power.

I've been told the 700 and the 200 can both be built up to handle about the same torque.

Bobs_Place · Vice President

I should have looked it up first.

The 700 is deeper in 1st, 2nd is just a little bit lower.

However I also like the 200 over the 700 for your car, I have a 700R4 in my pickup, the ratios are good for that application.

I would try the 3.55 see how you like them, change the later.

Lost in the 60s · President

Bungy L-76 wrote:
Mitch, not the 4l60 just the 4l80E is based on the TH400. The 4l60 and 4l60E are the exact same as the 700R4. They just changed the name. (The E at the end means it's electronicly controlled)
It sure was easier to keep up with all this when they only had a powerglide, TH350 or 400...

bowtie · Secretary

It gets even funner.... The newer 4L65E tranny uses a stronger planetary (5 gear instead of 4 if I remember) and swaps into a 700/4L60. Chris P did that. Wasn't cheap but I think it helped his out.

Also, the 700R4 came in both car and truck applications. Mine is from a truck so it has a mounting pad at the end. Truck ones don't have the cone shaped extension that a car one has because it needs to bolt to a transfer case. The car ones have that cone built into the case and the pad is in that area. Same otherwise for hard parts as far as I know.

67ss · 1K+ Club

I agree with the other guys of going with the 200 instead of the 700 for your setup. A 4l80e would be sweet but the cost of the controller and sensors needed to make it works does not make it real cost effective.

Yes I have way to much money in my 700 with the planetary updates and hardend input shaft but I did not want to have to take it out a third time.

There is also a 4l70 now which is still a 4l60 but with some beefier internals. Things keep on changing.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Jon, depending on the weather Sat.... if I drive the Chevelle I'll come early and you can go for a ride or drive it and see what you think of the 200-4R and 3.42 gears with a BBC in front of it.

Jon H · 1K+ Club

Sounds great Stan, thanks! My problem is I will probably like it tooo much for my pocket book right now. I get my new top next week so there goes the extra dollars.

Lost in the 60s · President

Jon H wrote:
Sounds great Stan, thanks! My problem is I will probably like it tooo much for my pocket book right now. I get my new top next week so there goes the extra dollars.
Get the trans this year and stay here and freeze next winter like the rest of us...

Jon H · 1K+ Club

Oh Mitch you are sooo bad. It would resolve the immediate financial issue but probably cause a larger one ending in a divorce. Don't forget my bracket this weekend. I am ready for the install. Thank you.

OscarZ · Treasurer

SShink wrote:
Jon, depending on the weather Sat.... if I drive the Chevelle I'll come early and you can go for a ride or drive it and see what you think of the 200-4R and 3.42 gears with a BBC in front of it.

Stan I'd like a ride too if you don't mind. You're 3.42 ratio and 26" tire should be pretty comparable to my 3.73 ratio and 28" tire. It would give me a good idea of the RPMs I could expect at different speeds with a 200-4R.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Riding in Craig's car convinced me enough that the 200 is the better way to go because of the strength along with the ease in fitment and installation alone.

John D · 2K+ Club

Other things to consider:

(This batch is from my experience swapping the 4L60e (a 700r4 on electronics) into my '65)

- It did fit with minimal modifications. A few well placed wallops with a dead-blow gave me the clearance in the tunnel for the servo housing on the transmission. Not noticeable in the car.

- I had to move the crossmember back and drill new holes in the mounting flange. The built-in mounting pad on the transmission case worked fine for the mount. Existing/stock rubber mount worked fine.

- I had to purchase a new tailcone & speedo drive/pulse generator setup. I need both to trigger the engine computer and run my speedo. This won't be needed in your car if you get an early or "police/truck" 700r4 with a mechanical speedo tailshaft.

- The driveshaft needed to be shortened. Catco did the work for me.

- I needed to fabricate/imagineer a new pivot/attachment point for my E-brake cable(s). Moving the crossmember aft negated the original location for the "hook" that supports the cable.

Supposedly all of the above are not a problem with a 200r4.

Bobs_Place · Vice President

John

How do you like the gear ratios in the 700r4, have you had a chance to ride in a car with the 200r4 to compare shift points?

John D · 2K+ Club

Remember I'm running a 4L60e - a totally electronic and ECM controlled 700r4... I can make/alter my shift points to anything I want them to be, so my experience isn't really valid here.

That said... with my 3.08 rear gears and 100% throttle opening - the car launches and rev peaks like my 4:11 / TH350 equipped '64 did... Just "WWWHHHAAA.... I need another gear!... NOW!"
But at "part-throttle" (80% or lower) the car is just a BEAST - Slam back in the seat and GO... wait for 2nd gear and then mash it to 100%.

1st gear now is/can be pretty darn short, and with any wheelspin I can ping off of the fuel cutoff/rev limiter (5900) at will before the 1-2 shift happens. (I'm working on that now, playing with the 1-2 shift vs. RPM vs. Throttle Position vs. MPH tables in correlation to rear axle ratio - to get it to do the 1-2 shift about 200 RPM below the fuel/rpm cutoff point @ 100% throttle.)

The LT-1/4L60e combo was never put in a 3000lb. car. The parameters were set up for a 5500lb. Roadie or Impala. 2500lbs. is a WHOLE lot less mass to get moving - so I've got to play with the parameters.

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

The place you want to talk to about either trans is Raptor Transmissions they will build for a reasonable price to the HP level you have and match a convertor.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

John D wrote:
The parameters were set up for a 5500lb. Roadie or Impala.

I've told you a million times to stop exagerating.

I think they're closer to 4500lbs... still a tank though.

SShink · 3K+ Club

A little off topic, but related to the 200-4R discussion.

Another shameless plug for Master Transmission in Rosemount... I didn't buy a 200-4R from a national company for a big reason in that I wanted local help if I had any problems. Master was also the least expensive option and has a great reputation in the metro. Plus they are 2 min. from my house!

After changing to the 3.42 gears this winter, the speedo is off. I had an adaptor made up for the 4.10 gears, but obviously it wouldn't work with the 3.42's. I had another adaptor made up, and for some reason it had a lot of issues.

So, I looked to see which color drive gear I have (orange) and found a chart that 3.42 gears need a green 30 tooth speedo gear with a 26" tire. I called John at Master Trans, stopped by there this a.m., and for $16 had a 1995 NOS one in my hand.

There aren't many 200-4R speedo gears out there these days as they just aren't that popular. John from MT told me he's been buying them up over the past years for his rebuild inventory.

Summit does carry the green one, but only a couple of others.

Will install it this weekend, and that should do it to finish the dash install!

John D · 2K+ Club

Derek69SS wrote:
John D wrote:
The parameters were set up for a 5500lb. Roadie or Impala.
I've told you a million times to stop exagerating.

I think they're closer to 4500lbs... still a tank though.

According to the sticker on the door it's 5751 lbs. Gross Weight... I'm guessing that's loaded to capacity.

John D · 2K+ Club

A source for speedo gears (from the guys who build the "Raptor" series of boxes Dave mentioned).

bowtie · Secretary

speaking of gears like that, I had a guy come in yesterday looking for a 20 tooth driven gear for his 80 Vette w/a 4 speed and a stewart warner adapter. Has a broken one and needs to put something in. He figured it would be off anyway since he did a tire change. I don't have the blue one he needs (20 tooth), but I can get one. I have a speedo gear chart for that car and asked what tire size. I find his size, his rear gear and see that he needs a 19 tooth. I have 2 on the shelf. Got curious, also have an 18 and 21.

back to Stan-always nice to have a good local company like that isn't it?