Going to tear into the front end of the '71 this weekend to install the disc brake conversion and lower springs, so I looked at the control arm bushings on the car and they are all shot.
Thoughts on a reasonably priced set of upper and lower front control arms with a budget of $500 or less as opposed to rebuilding the existing ones?
Option 1: I can get a set of Taiwan produced stock stamped arms with bushings and ball joints installed from Auto City Classics for $375
Option 2: There are these at CPP, but I have concerns they use cheap ball joints for $449 for the set that includes springs which I'd not use, and the shocks are also included.
I'm open to options, but prefer a ride that is a little firmer than stock but nothing rough riding.
Let the debate begin, as I know this is a fun topic for some.
Enganeer said
Feb 17, 2021
What are your goals for the car? Better handling in corners, tight ride, well balanced smooth riding lowered car? If lowering, would you be better off with dropped spindles instead of lowering spring?
If you're just replacing stock with equivalent aftermarket stock, what are you gaining other than a lighter pocket book.
BLyke said
Feb 17, 2021
Thanks for starting this one Stan, I will just sit back and watch, I've have also been considering these two basic choices (glad to see you "asking for a friend)
Bobs_Place said
Feb 17, 2021
I would be looking for uppers that help get you positive caster, 4 to 6* would be good. I set my front end to 2.5-3*+ (all I could get with factory uppers) the car road better and on the highway the car drives much straighter, I don't have to chase the lane. There are also tall ball joints available that can help with camber. Some lowers have a dropped spring pocket which will lower the front end.
Would like your front drum hubs if you want to part with them.
SShink said
Feb 17, 2021
Enganeer wrote:
What are your goals for the car? Better handling in corners, tight ride, well balanced smooth riding lowered car? If lowering, would you be better off with dropped spindles instead of lowering spring?
If you're just replacing stock with equivalent aftermarket stock, what are you gaining other than a lighter pocket book.
All good points and questions John.
I want a slightly firmer ride and handling than stock. The 1" lowering springs helps with both.
Fresh control arms and bushings will only help.
more ambition than brains said
Feb 17, 2021
Bob is right on the quest for more caster. Moving that number higher will improve wheel centering and return rate. It needs to happen in the upper control arm on this model. Look carefully at quality tubular upper arms that will improve caster.
Good tight steering gear and linkage, improve caster, good shocks, and appropriate size sway bar will make the most difference Tire profile is next. 60 series corners better than 70 series. Tire "sticky" factor is a major component also. How much does a pair of Global West uppers or, the ones Derek uses cost?
Where is Derek when we need him?
Think long and hard about Mr Engas' comment too.
Stock is still stock, these were horrible handling vehicles.
This stuff is fun, especially when it is others peoples money
Karl
-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Wednesday 17th of February 2021 08:44:00 PM
SShink said
Feb 18, 2021
more ambition than brains wrote
Good tight steering gear and linkage, improve caster, good shocks, and appropriate size sway bar will make the most difference Tire profile is next. 60 series corners better than 70 series. Tire "sticky" factor is a major component also. How much does a pair of Global West uppers or, the ones Derek uses cost?
Where is Derek when we need him?
Think long and hard about Mr Engas' comment too.
Stock is still stock, these were horrible handling vehicles.
This stuff is fun, especially when it is others peoples money
Karl
-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Wednesday 17th of February 2021 08:44:00 PM
The Global West set is $1000-1200, so twice the budget.
For tires, I have the Nitto NT all season 60 series all the way around, which are a slightly softer version of the NT555 tire and rode really nice on the 69 last summer when I had them on that car. They are a softer compound/sticky, but not a harsh ride.
Yes, I'm waiting for Derek's comments as well.
Lost in the 60s said
Feb 18, 2021
My opinion, and it isn't worth much, is do not buy ANY cheap, chinese crap that your life depends on.
I rebuilt my original arms on the '66 with Global West bushings and the difference in handling and response was night and day. My Camaro got their tubular uppers, because the caster/camber issue on those cars is much worse than the Chevelle's.
more ambition than brains said
Feb 18, 2021
I truly understand that $$$ must be a consideration.
Most bang for the buck, GW upper arms. about $600.00 +shipping and tax.
Best overall solution to touch all front suspension concerns, excluding steering gear and linkage, GW complete kit. Would include: upper, lower arms, springs, QA-1 shocks and 1 1/8 sway bar. Plug and play supposedly. $1900.00 plus shipping and handling. Deals with Caster, tightness elevation and cornering.
Yup, I know more than you have currently budgeted. Mitch offered some ways to economize, and have it work well. Maybe something close to his thoughts, slight budget increase and use some of your already acquired parts would work?
Biskwik has all new bushings, stock, thicker sway bar, faster gear, all new tie rods and center link. Stock shocks, big fat 70 series tires. It handles like what it is, a Barge.
Sounds like you have the "shoes" for road contact. Next make sure everything is tight. (steering linkage) Try and figure a Caster/Gear solution.
If you already have the springs, use them. Stiffer shocks, Sway Bar next?
Your next options bring you back to the control arm bushings, caster problem. The $$$ issue arrives in spades there.
Choices! Karl
Derek69SS said
Feb 18, 2021
The CPP arms and the ebay arms are all Chinese copies of Global West.
The arms themselves are decent, but the balljoints are trash, and the bushing quality isn't great either.
You can improve the camber curve with tall balljoints, but it really doesn't change the feel of the suspension until you get close to the limit of grip... if you don't intend to explore those limits, you won't really notice the difference. Tire wear will be slightly better, and you can fit bigger tires on a lower car if that's corrected, as it will keep the outside edge of the tire from rubbing the top edge of the inner fender on a bump.
Added caster is nice, you will feel that and it will give you some free camber in a turn. +5 degrees is pretty standard with most tubular arms.
If I was starting from scratch today, I'd probably go with UMI products, and I'd buy them from Justin Nall here: vectorforceindustries.com/
SShink said
Feb 18, 2021
Again, all great feedback.
I'm wondering if there's a combo of a stock lower control arm with a tubular upper control arm that makes sense to get the benefit of improved camber?
I can pick up the new ready to install lowers from ACC for about $200, then maybe find a good economy set of tubular uppers that have good ball joints?
I completely agree about not skimping on the ball joints, as we've all heard the horror stories.
Larry Lucast said
Feb 18, 2021
You started this conversation talking about stock. If you decide to go that route, why not shop for a good deal on bushings and ball joints, and have a local shop press them in?
SShink said
Feb 19, 2021
Larry Lucast wrote:
You started this conversation talking about stock. If you decide to go that route, why not shop for a good deal on bushings and ball joints, and have a local shop press them in?
Great question Larry. I did some quick math, and by the time I buy all the new bushings and ball joints that's $150 plus new bumpers and shafts ($50) plus the labor to have my local guy do it, ($100), I'm up to $300 when I can buy the completely assembled set from our friend Denny at ACC for $75 more and it's plug and play.
I suppose I would have better quality bushings and ball joints if I buy them myself, but I don't think I'll ever put enough miles on a Chevelle before I sell it to tell the difference.
So right now, I'm leaning towards buying the stock fully assembled set from Denny, as that will tighten up the front suspension substantially compared to what I'm seeing could be original 50 year old parts. Plus with the lowering springs, rear sway bar, and a new 1 1/4" front sway bar, it will firm up the stock ride but not be too harsh, I believe.
Bobs_Place said
Feb 19, 2021
Larry Lucast wrote:
You started this conversation talking about stock. If you decide to go that route, why not shop for a good deal on bushings and ball joints, and have a local shop press them in?
Stan
I can press the bushing and ball joints in for you if that helps.
SShink said
Feb 19, 2021
Bobs_Place wrote:
Larry Lucast wrote:
You started this conversation talking about stock. If you decide to go that route, why not shop for a good deal on bushings and ball joints, and have a local shop press them in?
Stan
I can press the bushing and ball joints in for you if that helps.
As always Bob, thanks for offering. Also, I saw you want the drumb brake stuff which is fine. But, I think I'll need to keep the steering arms to transfer them to the new spindles. I'll see how that works out. Otherwise, you can have the drum spindles, rotors, etc. for sure.
I decided to pull the trigger with Denny and picked up the fully assembled ones today. They look pretty good after spending some time going over them. We'll see how they fit once I get the old stuff off. I'm going to start disassembly this weekend now that it's finally above zero, and I don't feel bad heating up Jr.'s Garage.
"I suppose I would have better quality bushings and ball joints if I buy them myself, but I don't think I'll ever put enough miles on a Chevelle before I sell it to tell the difference." Well there is that!?
Sounds like a good call on the assembled parts, that was the conclusion I came to on the rear control arms for my car. It would have taken a lit to clean them up.how it turns out. Looking forward to see
Going to tear into the front end of the '71 this weekend to install the disc brake conversion and lower springs, so I looked at the control arm bushings on the car and they are all shot.
Thoughts on a reasonably priced set of upper and lower front control arms with a budget of $500 or less as opposed to rebuilding the existing ones?
Option 1: I can get a set of Taiwan produced stock stamped arms with bushings and ball joints installed from Auto City Classics for $375
Option 2: There are these at CPP, but I have concerns they use cheap ball joints for $449 for the set that includes springs which I'd not use, and the shocks are also included.
LINK TO CPP CONTROL ARMS
I'm open to options, but prefer a ride that is a little firmer than stock but nothing rough riding.
Let the debate begin, as I know this is a fun topic for some.
If you're just replacing stock with equivalent aftermarket stock, what are you gaining other than a lighter pocket book.
I would be looking for uppers that help get you positive caster, 4 to 6* would be good. I set my front end to 2.5-3*+ (all I could get with factory uppers) the car road better and on the highway the car drives much straighter, I don't have to chase the lane. There are also tall ball joints available that can help with camber. Some lowers have a dropped spring pocket which will lower the front end.
Would like your front drum hubs if you want to part with them.
All good points and questions John.
I want a slightly firmer ride and handling than stock. The 1" lowering springs helps with both.
Fresh control arms and bushings will only help.
Bob is right on the quest for more caster.
Moving that number higher will improve wheel centering and return rate.
It needs to happen in the upper control arm on this model.
Look carefully at quality tubular upper arms that will improve caster.
Good tight steering gear and linkage, improve caster, good shocks, and appropriate size sway bar will make the most difference
Tire profile is next.
60 series corners better than 70 series.
Tire "sticky" factor is a major component also.
How much does a pair of Global West uppers or, the ones Derek uses cost?
Where is Derek when we need him?
Think long and hard about Mr Engas' comment too.
Stock is still stock, these were horrible handling vehicles.
This stuff is fun, especially when it is others peoples money
Karl
-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Wednesday 17th of February 2021 08:44:00 PM
The Global West set is $1000-1200, so twice the budget.
For tires, I have the Nitto NT all season 60 series all the way around, which are a slightly softer version of the NT555 tire and rode really nice on the 69 last summer when I had them on that car. They are a softer compound/sticky, but not a harsh ride.
Yes, I'm waiting for Derek's comments as well.
I rebuilt my original arms on the '66 with Global West bushings and the difference in handling and response was night and day. My Camaro got their tubular uppers, because the caster/camber issue on those cars is much worse than the Chevelle's.
I truly understand that $$$ must be a consideration.
Most bang for the buck, GW upper arms. about $600.00 +shipping and tax.
Best overall solution to touch all front suspension concerns, excluding steering gear and linkage, GW complete kit.
Would include: upper, lower arms, springs, QA-1 shocks and 1 1/8 sway bar.
Plug and play supposedly. $1900.00 plus shipping and handling.
Deals with Caster, tightness elevation and cornering.
Yup, I know more than you have currently budgeted.
Mitch offered some ways to economize, and have it work well.
Maybe something close to his thoughts, slight budget increase and use some of your already acquired parts would work?
Biskwik has all new bushings, stock, thicker sway bar, faster gear, all new tie rods and center link.
Stock shocks, big fat 70 series tires.
It handles like what it is, a Barge.
Sounds like you have the "shoes" for road contact.
Next make sure everything is tight. (steering linkage)
Try and figure a Caster/Gear solution.
If you already have the springs, use them.
Stiffer shocks, Sway Bar next?
Your next options bring you back to the control arm bushings, caster problem.
The $$$ issue arrives in spades there.
Choices!
Karl
The arms themselves are decent, but the balljoints are trash, and the bushing quality isn't great either.
You can improve the camber curve with tall balljoints, but it really doesn't change the feel of the suspension until you get close to the limit of grip... if you don't intend to explore those limits, you won't really notice the difference. Tire wear will be slightly better, and you can fit bigger tires on a lower car if that's corrected, as it will keep the outside edge of the tire from rubbing the top edge of the inner fender on a bump.
Added caster is nice, you will feel that and it will give you some free camber in a turn. +5 degrees is pretty standard with most tubular arms.
If I was starting from scratch today, I'd probably go with UMI products, and I'd buy them from Justin Nall here: vectorforceindustries.com/
Again, all great feedback.
I'm wondering if there's a combo of a stock lower control arm with a tubular upper control arm that makes sense to get the benefit of improved camber?
I can pick up the new ready to install lowers from ACC for about $200, then maybe find a good economy set of tubular uppers that have good ball joints?
I completely agree about not skimping on the ball joints, as we've all heard the horror stories.
Great question Larry. I did some quick math, and by the time I buy all the new bushings and ball joints that's $150 plus new bumpers and shafts ($50) plus the labor to have my local guy do it, ($100), I'm up to $300 when I can buy the completely assembled set from our friend Denny at ACC for $75 more and it's plug and play.
I suppose I would have better quality bushings and ball joints if I buy them myself, but I don't think I'll ever put enough miles on a Chevelle before I sell it to tell the difference.
So right now, I'm leaning towards buying the stock fully assembled set from Denny, as that will tighten up the front suspension substantially compared to what I'm seeing could be original 50 year old parts. Plus with the lowering springs, rear sway bar, and a new 1 1/4" front sway bar, it will firm up the stock ride but not be too harsh, I believe.
Stan
I can press the bushing and ball joints in for you if that helps.
As always Bob, thanks for offering. Also, I saw you want the drumb brake stuff which is fine. But, I think I'll need to keep the steering arms to transfer them to the new spindles. I'll see how that works out. Otherwise, you can have the drum spindles, rotors, etc. for sure.
I decided to pull the trigger with Denny and picked up the fully assembled ones today. They look pretty good after spending some time going over them. We'll see how they fit once I get the old stuff off. I'm going to start disassembly this weekend now that it's finally above zero, and I don't feel bad heating up Jr.'s Garage.
Let the fun begin!
"I suppose I would have better quality bushings and ball joints if I buy them myself, but I don't think I'll ever put enough miles on a Chevelle before I sell it to tell the difference."
Well there is that!?
Sounds like a good call on the assembled parts, that was the conclusion I came to on the rear control arms for my car. It would have taken a lit to clean them up.how it turns out.
Looking forward to see