Has anyone with a 64-66 installed a 2004r and modified their transmission Crossmember or modified the frame mounting?
jim larson said
Aug 14, 2020
I am in the process of swapping a 2004r for the current th350. It requires moving the Crossmember trany mount points back approximately 4”. Aftermarket crossmembers are available; but for $300 or more. This is in a convertible ; but same concept as a 2 or 4 door.
i have read about cutting off the mounting tab and rewelding. Also reversing the Crossmember and rewelding the tab. And lastly modifing the mounting brackets that are welded to the frame ( 2 or 4 dr different because Crossmember is bolted directly to the frame rails).
if anyone has any info in this area I would appreciate the help. I think the 67 and up had mounting holes provided because of provisions for the TH400 which may just work. Thanks
I know Steven did it in his 65 elcamino which I believe is a boxed frame also. I don’t remember him buying a different crossmember. I will get him to chime in.
jim larson said
Aug 14, 2020
67ss wrote:
I know Steven did it in his 65 elcamino which I believe is a boxed frame also. I don’t remember him buying a different crossmember. I will get him to chime in.
Yes same boxed frame, just longer.
dashboard said
Aug 14, 2020
Jim, I installed a 2004R in my 65 Gran Sport (box frame) after removing a Super Turbine 300. I only needed to move the same crossmember back about three inches.
jim larson said
Aug 14, 2020
dashboard wrote:
Jim, I installed a 2004R in my 65 Gran Sport (box frame) after removing a Super Turbine 300. I only needed to move the same crossmember back about three inches.
Thanks for the comment Kevin. I think the fact that the engine would be located with respect to the frame different than the chevy engines that that would move the mount or maybe the crossmember mounting hole are a little different between the chevelle and the buick. But my vote is the differences in engines and engine location. From all I've read the move is 4" to the rear in a 66 chevelle.
How did you accomplish the move of the transmission mounting location? Re-drill, weld, new crossmember.
SShink said
Aug 14, 2020
I've installed three 2004R trans in 68-72 frames and re-used the stock cross member each time. Just needed to move it to the aft holes and it bolted right in. Maybe the 64-65's are different, but worth trying before buying aftermarket.
more ambition than brains said
Aug 14, 2020
On my Blue Elky we moved the brackets on the boxed frame. That was for a 700 R4.
I bought a bolt in crossmember also, it may work for your application, you are welcome to try and see if it fits. It has been sitting for a bunch of years, pretty sure I can find it
I will look on Sunday. I will also verify with Ron that he is not dreaming of a 200R4 swap in the future.
I have a bare roller boxed frame with the brackets in the correct location I think. I can do some measuring on that and the Blue Elky as the body is off to see if it is what I think it is.
Has been a while. Karl
.
jim larson said
Aug 15, 2020
SShink wrote:
I've installed three 2004R trans in 68-72 frames and re-used the stock cross member each time. Just needed to move it to the aft holes and it bolted right in. Maybe the 64-65's are different, but worth trying before buying aftermarket.
67-72 had the th400 as an option, so I was thinking that since the mounting holes for the th400 and 2004r are the same, you would have no problem
You can move the brackets as Karl said, move the mounting tab on the crossmember, just a little welding. Those aftermarket brackets are ugly. But an option for $300 Plus new.
jim larson said
Aug 15, 2020
more ambition than brains wrote:
On my Blue Elky we moved the brackets on the boxed frame. That was for a 700 R4.
I bought a bolt in crossmember also, it may work for your application, you are welcome to try and see if it fits. It has been sitting for a bunch of years, pretty sure I can find it
I will look on Sunday. I will also verify with Ron that he is not dreaming of a 200R4 swap in the future.
I have a bare roller boxed frame with the brackets in the correct location I think. I can do some measuring on that and the Blue Elky as the body is off to see if it is what I think it is.
Has been a while. Karl
.
I think moving the brackets would be the best option, I bet you had the body off the frame. If I had a hoist this would be an option. Right now I think my best option is moving the mounting tab from the front to the rear (if the mount will not iinterfere with the bottom of the 2004r) on the spare crossmember I have. Then cut the end to the length for the convertible, re-drill the mounting holes and use a press to flatten out the area.
Check on that crossmember if Ron is not interested?
But I ned to know EXACTLY how far to move the center of the current mounting holes to the rear. I think it is 6"; but also have read 4'.
Do you know how far you moved the brackets to the rear? That would tell me the answer I need to know.
-- Edited by jim larson on Saturday 15th of August 2020 07:08:20 AM
more ambition than brains said
Aug 15, 2020
I can measure and take pictures on Sunday.
Blue Elky is off frame and I have the roller just outside.
Will post on results on Monday.
Won't be at Treasure Chest till 3:00 ish on Sunday, haircut and caulk Biscayne Basket case first.
You could always scoot up Sunday if you feel the urge.
Ron may be there earlier.
Karl
cooz65 said
Aug 15, 2020
Jim on my 65 Elky I ran into the same problem you’re experiencing. I ended up making some brackets that utilized the original mounting holes on the frame and moved the original cross member back the required distance. I can take some pictures on Monday of what we ended up making. It was pretty much just some flat stock.
more ambition than brains said
Aug 15, 2020
If memory serves me, the one I have was from Bow Tie Overdrives.
Their picture shows mine to be for a 200R, the one I have does not look like the 700R picture.
It is a bolt in set up.
Karl
jim larson said
Aug 15, 2020
cooz65 wrote:
Jim on my 65 Elky I ran into the same problem you’re experiencing. I ended up making some brackets that utilized the original mounting holes on the frame and moved the original cross member back the required distance. I can take some pictures on Monday of what we ended up making. It was pretty much just some flat stock.
That would be real helpful. Do you remember the distance that the crossmember had to be moved back? I've heard both 4# and 6". One option I thought of was leaving the original brackets in place and making a bracket mounting it ( same thickness as stock bracket) next to the stock bracket that will allow me to move the original crossmember back the required distance. I am thinking you made brackets that bolt to the original mounting bracket. If so then that kind of raises the crossmember the thickness of your new bracket.
jim larson said
Aug 15, 2020
more ambition than brains wrote:
I can measure and take pictures on Sunday. Blue Elky is off frame and I have the roller just outside.
Will post on results on Monday.
Won't be at Treasure Chest till 3:00 ish on Sunday, haircut and caulk Biscayne Basket case first.
You could always scoot up Sunday if you feel the urge.
Ron may be there earlier.
Karl
I think I may just do that. But I'll text or call just to make sure your there.
more ambition than brains said
Aug 15, 2020
I have some pictures, P.M. your cel# I will text them to you.
Karl
Larry Lucast said
Aug 15, 2020
We had a tech session for my 64 Chevelle in my garage. One of the tasks was to drill new holes in the frame and move the crossmember. I don't remember who actually did the job, but I remember it just involved drilling and bolting.
Larry
jim larson said
Aug 16, 2020
Larry Lucast wrote:
We had a tech session for my 64 Chevelle in my garage. One of the tasks was to drill new holes in the frame and move the crossmember. I don't remember who actually did the job, but I remember it just involved drilling and bolting.
Larry
that would be true for a 2 or 4 dr. A convertible or an elcamino has boxed frame rails. There are brackets welded to the boxed frame, then the crossmember is attached to those brackets. Changed in 67 because of the addition of the TH400 as an option.
jim larson said
Aug 16, 2020
Here is a photo of a bracket I made that would bolt to the original brackets. This would also involve welding at the end to the boxed frame similar to the original bracket welding. I got this idea from coz65 ‘s post. Awaiting photos from him and Karl. I think you could easily go back to th350 or a manual with this bracket.
Thanks to Karl as he was kind enough to send the crossmember home with me yesterday for examination and measurement. Here is what I found so far. I am assuming the mounting of the transmission is suppose to be 6' to the rear of the original mounting for a PG or Muncie 4 sp which is also the same as the T350 according to most of the information I've read.
If Karl remembers the holes on the new crossmember didn't quite line up with the original holes in the frame which as spaced 2 1/4" . On the Bowtie crossmember they are 1 3/4". I think that is true because that crossmember is not to be mounted in the position of the original crossmember; but in the two rear most holes in the frame brackets which as spaced 1 3/4" which in effect moves the mounting 1 3/4" to the rear. Now the design of the crossmember when placed in this position moves the mounting hole for the transmission back 4 1/2" as compared to an original crossmember design.
So by moving the mounting on the frame brackets to the rear two holes along with the design of the bowtie crossmember you are effectively moving the centers of the transmission mounting tab holes back 6 1/4" This is somewhat consistent with most of the information on the internet that you must move the mounting back approximately 6".
Hopefully this is what coz 65 found on his swap.
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 17th of August 2020 10:35:50 AM
jim larson said
Aug 18, 2020
Thanks to Karl as he was kind enough to send the crossmember home with me yesterday for examination and measurement. Here is what I found so far. I am assuming the mounting of the transmission is suppose to be 6' to the rear of the original mounting for a PG or Muncie 4 sp which is also the same as the T350 according to most of the information I've read.
If Karl remembers the holes on the new crossmember didn't quite line up with the original holes in the frame which as spaced 2 1/4" . On the Bowtie crossmember they are 1 3/4". I think that is true because that crossmember is not to be mounted in the position of the original crossmember; but in the two rear most holes in the frame brackets which as spaced 1 3/4" which in effect moves the mounting 1 3/4" to the rear. Now the design of the crossmember when placed in this position moves the mounting hole for the transmission back 4 1/2" as compared to an original crossmember design.
So by moving the mounting on the frame brackets to the rear two holes along with the design of the bowtie crossmember you are effectively moving the centers of the transmission mounting tab ho6les back 6 1/4" This is somewhat consistent with most of the information on the internet that you must move the mounting back approximately 6".
Hopefully this is what coz 65 found on his swap.
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 17th of August 2020 10:35:50 AM
Something seems to be wrong with my iPad or this site as trying to reply or add photos is not working the best for me. I tried to add a reply to post a new photo but it would only let me add to a previous post.
well I am not sure the bow tie CM because of exhaust clearance issues or the height position of the mounting pad.
Considering all information and Stevens bracket this is what I have come up with at this time. make a bracket that bolts to original bracket and extends along the frame to the rear that when trans is temporary installed will be welded to the frame where it extends from original bracket. Will move CM back the required 6 3/8”.
2004r is in for the rebuild. Holly carb sent to Eric Jackson for rebuild. With the 66 holley carb and the correct front fuel bowel the 66-67 corvette 350 HP fuel line will fit perfectly. Now to finalize engine rebuild.
SShink said
Aug 27, 2020
jim larson wrote:
2004r is in for the rebuild.
Jim did you go with Larry's trans shop guy in Blaine?
How much for the rebuild?
I've got one on the shelf dying for a rebuild.
Thanks
jim larson said
Aug 28, 2020
An acquaintance of Mitch's is doing the re-build. Price to be determined by quality of rebuild?
Lost in the 60s said
Aug 29, 2020
Actually, I believe Stan is the originator of others in the club going to this acquaintance from his time in Rosemount, but you didn't hear that from me...
cooz65 said
Aug 30, 2020
If this acquaintance is the same acquaintance I used to rebuild mine....you'll be super happy Jim! Completely changed the attitude of my Elky, and when set to "stun" as John D. likes to call it, makes fun little chirps all over town
jim larson said
Aug 30, 2020
I just refer to him as Transmission John. A really nice personal guy. I just told him to do what he thinks is best.
SShink said
Sep 2, 2020
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Actually, I believe Stan is the originator of others in the club going to this acquaintance from his time in Rosemount, but you didn't hear that from me...
Yeah, he's had his fingerprints on a couple of 200R4's for me but...I think Chris P. actually referred to him the 1st time, so he is the original source.
As far as other trans builders, I stopped by NATCO Transmission in Isanti the other day and they quoted me $1750 to rebuild the one I have to handle 500 HP, and that price includes the torque converter of choice. He uses pressure for the lockup not electronic. Still not sure which way I'll go when I pull the trigger.
Lost in the 60s said
Sep 2, 2020
SShink wrote:
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Actually, I believe Stan is the originator of others in the club going to this acquaintance from his time in Rosemount, but you didn't hear that from me...
Yeah, he's had his fingerprints on a couple of 200R4's for me but...I think Chris P. actually referred to him the 1st time, so he is the original source.
As far as other trans builders, I stopped by NATCO Transmission in Isanti the other day and they quoted me $1750 to rebuild the one I have to handle 500 HP, and that price includes the torque converter of choice. He uses pressure for the lockup not electronic. Still not sure which way I'll go when I pull the trigger.
Already got plans for a motor swap ?...
I think you're right about Chris. He seems to go back a ways with Transmission Man...
jim larson said
Sep 3, 2020
SShink wrote:
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Actually, I believe Stan is the originator of others in the club going to this acquaintance from his time in Rosemount, but you didn't hear that from me...
Yeah, he's had his fingerprints on a couple of 200R4's for me but...I think Chris P. actually referred to him the 1st time, so he is the original source.
As far as other trans builders, I stopped by NATCO Transmission in Isanti the other day and they quoted me $1750 to rebuild the one I have to handle 500 HP, and that price includes the torque converter of choice. He uses pressure for the lockup not electronic. Still not sure which way I'll go when I pull the trigger.
Hi Stan, I just sent a message to John the Trans Guy, He said he would like to talk to me about tat and you if your interested. He said it does not eliminate the electronic solenoid; but it adds a 4th gear switch.
SShink said
Sep 3, 2020
jim larson wrote:
Hi Stan, I just sent a message to John the Trans Guy, He said he would like to talk to me about tat and you if your interested. He said it does not eliminate the electronic solenoid; but it adds a 4th gear switch.
He built one trans for me with a pressure lockup in 4th gear, and the other one I used a B&M controller box to electronically lockup. I prefer the B&M electronic lockup because it can select what MPH the converter locks up, and reduces the RPM an additional 200 RPM over the pressure switch one. The B&M kit does cost $200 though. Jon H. has the pressure switch version and likes it, so it's personal preference.
Did he want to talk to me about rebuilding my 200R4? Maybe he would give us a discount for two at a time. Probably not likely though.
jim larson said
Sep 3, 2020
No deals. He remember you and was just offering to add his thoughts. He did mention he likes the B&M kit. I think Mitch has the B&M kit.
Lost in the 60s said
Sep 3, 2020
Yes, I have the B&M controller and it will, also, lock up the converter in 2nd and 3rd, which I don't know if the pressure system will do ? I really liked that feature pulling the travel trailer thru the Smokey mountains to keep the trans temp down and torque up. The B&M reads mph to control the converter and doesn't care what gear the trans is in.
I am in the process of swapping a 2004r for the current th350. It requires moving the Crossmember trany mount points back approximately 4”. Aftermarket crossmembers are available; but for $300 or more. This is in a convertible ; but same concept as a 2 or 4 door.
i have read about cutting off the mounting tab and rewelding. Also reversing the Crossmember and rewelding the tab. And lastly modifing the mounting brackets that are welded to the frame ( 2 or 4 dr different because Crossmember is bolted directly to the frame rails).
if anyone has any info in this area I would appreciate the help. I think the 67 and up had mounting holes provided because of provisions for the TH400 which may just work. Thanks
I know Steven did it in his 65 elcamino which I believe is a boxed frame also. I don’t remember him buying a different crossmember. I will get him to chime in.
Yes same boxed frame, just longer.
Thanks for the comment Kevin. I think the fact that the engine would be located with respect to the frame different than the chevy engines that that would move the mount or maybe the crossmember mounting hole are a little different between the chevelle and the buick. But my vote is the differences in engines and engine location. From all I've read the move is 4" to the rear in a 66 chevelle.
How did you accomplish the move of the transmission mounting location? Re-drill, weld, new crossmember.
I've installed three 2004R trans in 68-72 frames and re-used the stock cross member each time. Just needed to move it to the aft holes and it bolted right in. Maybe the 64-65's are different, but worth trying before buying aftermarket.
On my Blue Elky we moved the brackets on the boxed frame.
That was for a 700 R4.
I bought a bolt in crossmember also, it may work for your application, you are welcome to try and see if it fits.
It has been sitting for a bunch of years, pretty sure I can find it
I will look on Sunday.
I will also verify with Ron that he is not dreaming of a 200R4 swap in the future.
I have a bare roller boxed frame with the brackets in the correct location I think. I can do some measuring on that and the Blue
Elky as the body is off to see if it is what I think it is.
Has been a while.
Karl
.
67-72 had the th400 as an option, so I was thinking that since the mounting holes for the th400 and 2004r are the same, you would have no problem
You can move the brackets as Karl said, move the mounting tab on the crossmember, just a little welding. Those aftermarket brackets are ugly. But an option for $300 Plus new.
I think moving the brackets would be the best option, I bet you had the body off the frame. If I had a hoist this would be an option. Right now I think my best option is moving the mounting tab from the front to the rear (if the mount will not iinterfere with the bottom of the 2004r) on the spare crossmember I have. Then cut the end to the length for the convertible, re-drill the mounting holes and use a press to flatten out the area.
Check on that crossmember if Ron is not interested?
But I ned to know EXACTLY how far to move the center of the current mounting holes to the rear. I think it is 6"; but also have read 4'.
Do you know how far you moved the brackets to the rear? That would tell me the answer I need to know.
-- Edited by jim larson on Saturday 15th of August 2020 07:08:20 AM
Blue Elky is off frame and I have the roller just outside.
Will post on results on Monday.
Won't be at Treasure Chest till 3:00 ish on Sunday, haircut and caulk Biscayne Basket case first.
You could always scoot up Sunday if you feel the urge.
Ron may be there earlier.
Karl
Their picture shows mine to be for a 200R, the one I have does not look like the 700R picture.
It is a bolt in set up.
Karl
That would be real helpful. Do you remember the distance that the crossmember had to be moved back? I've heard both 4# and 6". One option I thought of was leaving the original brackets in place and making a bracket mounting it ( same thickness as stock bracket) next to the stock bracket that will allow me to move the original crossmember back the required distance. I am thinking you made brackets that bolt to the original mounting bracket. If so then that kind of raises the crossmember the thickness of your new bracket.
I think I may just do that. But I'll text or call just to make sure your there.
Karl
Larry
that would be true for a 2 or 4 dr. A convertible or an elcamino has boxed frame rails. There are brackets welded to the boxed frame, then the crossmember is attached to those brackets. Changed in 67 because of the addition of the TH400 as an option.
Here is a photo of a bracket I made that would bolt to the original brackets. This would also involve welding at the end to the boxed frame similar to the original bracket welding. I got this idea from coz65 ‘s post. Awaiting photos from him and Karl. I think you could easily go back to th350 or a manual with this bracket.
Good to see you and your Bride yesterday.
Be interesting to see what crossmember option you choose.
Pictures of the one from Bow Tie Overdrives.
If Karl remembers the holes on the new crossmember didn't quite line up with the original holes in the frame which as spaced 2 1/4" . On the Bowtie crossmember they are 1 3/4". I think that is true because that crossmember is not to be mounted in the position of the original crossmember; but in the two rear most holes in the frame brackets which as spaced 1 3/4" which in effect moves the mounting 1 3/4" to the rear. Now the design of the crossmember when placed in this position moves the mounting hole for the transmission back 4 1/2" as compared to an original crossmember design.
So by moving the mounting on the frame brackets to the rear two holes along with the design of the bowtie crossmember you are effectively moving the centers of the transmission mounting tab holes back 6 1/4" This is somewhat consistent with most of the information on the internet that you must move the mounting back approximately 6".
Hopefully this is what coz 65 found on his swap.
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 17th of August 2020 10:35:50 AM
If Karl remembers the holes on the new crossmember didn't quite line up with the original holes in the frame which as spaced 2 1/4" . On the Bowtie crossmember they are 1 3/4". I think that is true because that crossmember is not to be mounted in the position of the original crossmember; but in the two rear most holes in the frame brackets which as spaced 1 3/4" which in effect moves the mounting 1 3/4" to the rear. Now the design of the crossmember when placed in this position moves the mounting hole for the transmission back 4 1/2" as compared to an original crossmember design.
So by moving the mounting on the frame brackets to the rear two holes along with the design of the bowtie crossmember you are effectively moving the centers of the transmission mounting tab ho6les back 6 1/4" This is somewhat consistent with most of the information on the internet that you must move the mounting back approximately 6".
Hopefully this is what coz 65 found on his swap.
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 17th of August 2020 10:35:50 AM
Something seems to be wrong with my iPad or this site as trying to reply or add photos is not working the best for me. I tried to add a reply to post a new photo but it would only let me add to a previous post.
well I am not sure the bow tie CM because of exhaust clearance issues or the height position of the mounting pad.
Yep, I extended the crossmember 6 1/2" on my '38 to retain the mounting holes already drilled in the frame.
Considering all information and Stevens bracket this is what I have come up with at this time. make a bracket that bolts to original bracket and extends along the frame to the rear that when trans is temporary installed will be welded to the frame where it extends from original bracket. Will move CM back the required 6 3/8”.
Here is a photo of a little cardboard example.
2004r is in for the rebuild. Holly carb sent to Eric Jackson for rebuild. With the 66 holley carb and the correct front fuel bowel the 66-67 corvette 350 HP fuel line will fit perfectly. Now to finalize engine rebuild.
Jim did you go with Larry's trans shop guy in Blaine?
How much for the rebuild?
I've got one on the shelf dying for a rebuild.
Thanks
An acquaintance of Mitch's is doing the re-build. Price to be determined by quality of rebuild?
Actually, I believe Stan is the originator of others in the club going to this acquaintance from his time in Rosemount, but you didn't hear that from me...
If this acquaintance is the same acquaintance I used to rebuild mine....you'll be super happy Jim! Completely changed the attitude of my Elky, and when set to "stun" as John D. likes to call it, makes fun little chirps all over town
I just refer to him as Transmission John. A really nice personal guy. I just told him to do what he thinks is best.
Yeah, he's had his fingerprints on a couple of 200R4's for me but...I think Chris P. actually referred to him the 1st time, so he is the original source.
As far as other trans builders, I stopped by NATCO Transmission in Isanti the other day and they quoted me $1750 to rebuild the one I have to handle 500 HP, and that price includes the torque converter of choice. He uses pressure for the lockup not electronic. Still not sure which way I'll go when I pull the trigger.
Already got plans for a motor swap ?...
I think you're right about Chris. He seems to go back a ways with Transmission Man...
Hi Stan, I just sent a message to John the Trans Guy, He said he would like to talk to me about tat and you if your interested. He said it does not eliminate the electronic solenoid; but it adds a 4th gear switch.
He built one trans for me with a pressure lockup in 4th gear, and the other one I used a B&M controller box to electronically lockup. I prefer the B&M electronic lockup because it can select what MPH the converter locks up, and reduces the RPM an additional 200 RPM over the pressure switch one. The B&M kit does cost $200 though. Jon H. has the pressure switch version and likes it, so it's personal preference.
Did he want to talk to me about rebuilding my 200R4? Maybe he would give us a discount for two at a time.
Probably not likely though.
No deals. He remember you and was just offering to add his thoughts. He did mention he likes the B&M kit. I think Mitch has the B&M kit.