Going to be driving the convert I got last fall as I plan to finish the trunk work this week. Could someone explain how a TQ works and how it acts. As you may know I am having issues with the 350 SB and 350TH that replaced the original 327 and PG. If you recall, It will kill unless I have the rpms up at 1100 when shifting into gear from park or natural. I am not sure what I have for a TQ. Thanks
Lost in the 60s said
May 17, 2020
A TQ can have a higher than original "stall" speed, where a sudden acceleration will let it slip to a pre-determined rpm provide more rpm at a lower speed for a high performance engine. I doubt your car has one and even if it did, many high stall converters will still allow the trans to grab enough at an idle to lug the engine some and in your situation, kill the engine. The problem you have is not with the TQ, I believe it's with either a vacuum leak or timing. The engine should idle smoothly at 850, or lower, depending on cam. Once you get it on the road, bring it up here. We will find the problem and correct it.
jim larson said
May 17, 2020
Lost in the 60s wrote:
A TQ can have a higher than original "stall" speed, where a sudden acceleration will let it slip to a pre-determined rpm provide more rpm at a lower speed for a high performance engine. I doubt your car has one and even if it did, many high stall converters will still allow the trans to grab enough at an idle to lug the engine some and in your situation, kill the engine. The problem you have is not with the TQ, I believe it's with either a vacuum leak or timing. The engine should idle smoothly at 850, or lower, depending on cam. Once you get it on the road, bring it up here. We will find the problem and correct it.
Fuel tank is going in tomorrow morning. Hope to drive it a bit to see everything is working in the afternoon. Do you plan to be off Thursday and Friday? Any day works for me providing things go smoothly tomorrow.
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 17th of May 2020 05:16:27 PM
I think what your asking is, "Will a different TQ allow the engine to idle in gear".
There are TQs that are for performance applications. They do allow the engine to idle at at a higher speed, but the main reason for using them, as Mitch was pointing out, is they allow the engine to rev to a point where it can develop more torque. The wrong convertor could cause the engine to be very sluggish at low rpm. On the other hand, a looser/performance TQ, or 'High Stall" converter in a a car with a low performance or "std every day driver" type cam would cause the engine to have to rev higher and possible past it's peek torque to move the car along, would be very inefficient.
A converter change may work, but unless you have way more cam, "very high performance" than we are aware of, I would not recommend a change.
I'm with Mitch, timing, vacuum leaks or carb.
Have you checked Vacuum at idle, say 750-800 RPM like we talked at Karl's??? This will help identify the cam.
Bobs_Place said
May 17, 2020
I do have a carb that you could try if you would like. Just have to dust it off, and recheck the calibration, let me know.
jim larson said
May 17, 2020
Bobs_Place wrote:
Jim
I think what your asking is, "Will a different TQ allow the engine to idle in gear".
There are TQs that are for performance applications. They do allow the engine to idle at at a higher speed, but the main reason for using them, as Mitch was pointing out, is they allow the engine to rev to a point where it can develop more torque. The wrong convertor could cause the engine to be very sluggish at low rpm. On the other hand, a looser/performance TQ, or 'High Stall" converter in a a car with a low performance or "std every day driver" type cam would cause the engine to have to rev higher and possible past it's peek torque to move the car along, would be very inefficient.
A converter change may work, but unless you have way more cam, "very high performance" than we are aware of, I would not recommend a change.
I'm with Mitch, timing, vacuum leaks or carb.
Have you checked Vacuum at idle, say 750-800 RPM like we talked at Karl's??? This will help identify the cam.
Plan to do that tomorrow hopefully. Car has not been running since Nov except to move it a bit with the outboard motor tank hooked up.
Lost in the 60s said
May 17, 2020
jim larson wrote:
Lost in the 60s wrote:
A TQ can have a higher than original "stall" speed, where a sudden acceleration will let it slip to a pre-determined rpm provide more rpm at a lower speed for a high performance engine. I doubt your car has one and even if it did, many high stall converters will still allow the trans to grab enough at an idle to lug the engine some and in your situation, kill the engine. The problem you have is not with the TQ, I believe it's with either a vacuum leak or timing. The engine should idle smoothly at 850, or lower, depending on cam. Once you get it on the road, bring it up here. We will find the problem and correct it.
Fuel tank is going in tomorrow morning. Hope to drive it a bit to see everything is working in the afternoon. Do you plan to be off Thursday and Friday? Any day works for me providing things go smoothly tomorrow. -- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 17th of May 2020 05:16:27 PM
I have a standing Chiropractor appointment at 9 am and don't usually work that day. Thursday forecast looks to be nice, at this time, so it could work. If Bob is receptive to bringing the carb, he could come too. Saw my vacuum gauge today, but need to find my timing light. Pretty sure it's here.
jim larson said
May 17, 2020
Bobs_Place wrote:
I do have a carb that you could try if you would like. Just have to dust it off, and recheck the calibration, let me know.
Let’s wait a bit and see what Mitch come up with. I was also going to fullywarm up the engine and check the compression again as you mentioned because I did that with a cold engine, we also talked about that at Karl’s. And I was also going to check my base timing and also with the VC hooked up. I think I was at 14 base and the VC was adding 20 at idle.
jim larson said
May 17, 2020
I have vacuum gauge installed on line from intake to power brace booster that I can read from under the hood. Also have dial back timing light with rpm gauge and also one from the 60’s.
Carb was supposedly rebuilt last summer. I tried to Adjust idle mixture screws according to Edelbrock. And I also installed correct adapter and heat shield. But it could be the carb.
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 17th of May 2020 05:39:37 PM
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 17th of May 2020 05:52:18 PM
Bobs_Place said
May 17, 2020
Just to be clear, on the timing, I think your base + vac timing sounds good, Is it 14* at 750-800 or 1100? 14 base, 20 vac = 34* at idle, I like it!!!
But what we need to find out is do we loose some timing when you put the car in gear. You would need a helper to check it, wife or neighbor to put the car in gear, the mark shouldn't move when the trans is shifted into gear. Be sure your helper is hard on the brakes!!!!
Also and as we spoke when checking compression, open the throttle, engine up to temp and all plugs removed. Also good to remove the power wire from the dist, when done don't forget to close the throttle before you crank the engine!!!
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Sunday 17th of May 2020 06:27:48 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Sunday 17th of May 2020 06:32:19 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Sunday 17th of May 2020 06:42:57 PM
SShink said
May 18, 2020
I had a similar issue with the Malibu dying when put into Drive, and it turned out to be the carb/timing so X3 to start there.
jim larson said
May 18, 2020
Well I got the fuel tank installed today. Everything seemed OK so I put in 10 gallons and let the car thoroughly warm up ; but just drove around the block on the way to the gas station. Seemed a little hesitant maybe missing a bit.
Back at the garage after it was warmed up I decided to recheck a few things for Bob and Mitch.
Base timing seemed to register 11 degrees at 600 rpm with VC Plugged and vacuum gauge read about 7"
When I hooked up the VC timing went to 33 degree and 950 rpm with timing light and 12" of vacuum. Inside tack reading 1000 rpm
When I had Rachael step on the brake and shift into Reverse Timing dropped to about 15 degrees and about 4" of vacuum. Car did not kill but just about did, likes idle set at about 1100 rpm by inside tack. Did not check what happens if I shifted into Drive.
Lights checked, brakes checked, along with oil, water, trans fluid. Forgot PS Fluid. Plan to drive it about 10 miles tomorrow and check the compression Per Bob's Instruction.
Photo is how I have vacuum gauge hooked up..
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 18th of May 2020 02:27:48 PM
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 18th of May 2020 02:35:35 PM
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 18th of May 2020 03:22:20 PM
Your vacuum is seriously low, it should be AT LEAST 18 inches at idle.
Where are you pulling the vacuum reading from ? That can have a big influence on the reading.
If you are pulling vacuum from the intake manifold, it has to have a vacuum leak, or the engine is completely wore out, OR someone put a new cam in and missed the timing mark.
Bobs_Place said
May 18, 2020
Or a performance cam
Good news on the timing, nice work.
Looks like some distributor work is in order.
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:43:30 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 08:20:20 PM
jim larson said
May 18, 2020
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Your vacuum is seriously low, it should be AT LEAST 18 inches at idle. Where are you pulling the vacuum reading from ? That can have a big influence on the reading. If you are pulling vacuum from the intake manifold, it has to have a vacuum leak, or the engine is completely wore out, OR someone put a new cam in and missed the timing mark.
Vacuum is coming from intake, the line that feeds the PB booster. When car is a cruise speed, say steady at 50 mph vacuum sits steady at 17. My guess is that there is a different cam at least, since engine was a make up of different components. A 350 truck block, 305 heads, roller rockers, performer intake and edelbrock carb dated 1997. A previous owner said it had the original 327 and PG in it when he sold it. When the guy from MN bought it in Jan of 2000 it had the current engine.
jim larson said
May 18, 2020
Bobs_Place wrote:
Or a performance cam
Good news on the timing, nice work.
Looks like some distributor work is in order.
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:43:30 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:50:24 PM
The guy I got it from said he just put in a new distributor and plug wires. Hw also gave me the old distributor.
Lost in the 60s said
May 18, 2020
jim larson wrote:
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Your vacuum is seriously low, it should be AT LEAST 18 inches at idle. Where are you pulling the vacuum reading from ? That can have a big influence on the reading. If you are pulling vacuum from the intake manifold, it has to have a vacuum leak, or the engine is completely wore out, OR someone put a new cam in and missed the timing mark.
Vacuum is coming from intake, the line that feeds the PB booster. When car is a cruise speed, say steady at 50 mph vacuum sits steady at 17. My guess is that there is a different cam at least, since engine was a make up of different components. A 350 truck block, 305 heads, roller rockers, performer intake and edelbrock carb dated 1997. A previous owner said it had the original 327 and PG in it when he sold it. When the guy from MN bought it in Jan of 2000 it had the current engine.
Does it have a lumpy idle like it has a big cam ?
Wonder if the lifters are too tight ?
You mention is seems to have a miss.
Bobs_Place said
May 18, 2020
jim larson wrote:
Bobs_Place wrote:
Or a performance cam
Good news on the timing, nice work.
Looks like some distributor work is in order.
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:43:30 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:50:24 PM
The guy I got it from said he just put in a new distributor and plug wires. Hw also gave me the old distributor.
Your dist would work good in an engine that idles at 500 to 550 RPM and 15 to 18". It just needs some "adjustment." As I recall this is an HEI dist. Most all HETs were used in EGR emissions engine, they used vacuum advance units that start advancing at 3 to 5" and all in by 12 to 14", centrifugal stars just above idle. With your engine at 800 to 950 and vac at 10 to 12" both cent. and vac. adv are retarding timing when going into gear, 15* maybe 200 to 250 RPM, before the trans loads the engine.
Would you rather use the old dist? I also have 2 or 3 HEI that you could try that I think would work.
jim larson said
May 19, 2020
Lost in the 60s wrote:
jim larson wrote:
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Your vacuum is seriously low, it should be AT LEAST 18 inches at idle. Where are you pulling the vacuum reading from ? That can have a big influence on the reading. If you are pulling vacuum from the intake manifold, it has to have a vacuum leak, or the engine is completely wore out, OR someone put a new cam in and missed the timing mark.
Vacuum is coming from intake, the line that feeds the PB booster. When car is a cruise speed, say steady at 50 mph vacuum sits steady at 17. My guess is that there is a different cam at least, since engine was a make up of different components. A 350 truck block, 305 heads, roller rockers, performer intake and edelbrock carb dated 1997. A previous owner said it had the original 327 and PG in it when he sold it. When the guy from MN bought it in Jan of 2000 it had the current engine.
Does it have a lumpy idle like it has a big cam ?
Wonder if the lifters are too tight ?
You mention is seems to have a miss.
I think it sounds like a big cam; but no expert on that subject. I have no idea of how to determine if it has lifter that are too tight. Just that it has roller rockers. I plan to drive about 20 miles today and then check CR. I just added a little Marvel Mystery oil today, as I always use it in the SS.
jim larson said
May 19, 2020
Bobs_Place wrote:
jim larson wrote:
Bobs_Place wrote:
Or a performance cam
Good news on the timing, nice work.
Looks like some distributor work is in order.
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:43:30 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:50:24 PM
The guy I got it from said he just put in a new distributor and plug wires. Hw also gave me the old distributor.
Your dist would work good in an engine that idles at 500 to 550 RPM and 15 to 18". It just needs some "adjustment." As I recall this is an HEI dist. Most all HETs were used in EGR emissions engine, they used vacuum advance units that start advancing at 3 to 5" and all in by 12 to 14", centrifugal stars just above idle. With your engine at 800 to 950 and vac at 10 to 12" both cent. and vac. adv are retarding timing when going into gear, 15* maybe 200 to 250 RPM, before the trans loads the engine.
Would you rather use the old dist? I also have 2 or 3 HEI that you could try that I think would work.
Yes it an HEI unit. I don't really care at this time if I use an old style disc or a HEI unit. I have a New Disc for a 66 style Chevy SB in the garage; but probably would need to get new plugs & coil. In the long run would like to go with the old set up of disc & coil with a pentronix unit. Going to drive the car today, then pull the plugs and see what they look like and do the CR test according to your recommendations.
jim larson said
May 19, 2020
Well here is what I got. Drove the car about 15 miles this morning from 1100-4000 rpm. Got interrupted until after lunch, so just drove around the block and let car idle until fully warm. Noticed #7 & #8 exhaust not as hot as the others ??
plugs seemed ok to me on 1,2,3,4,5,6. #7 & #8 looked kind of oily; I am not that good at interpretation by looking at the plugs so included a photo.
Where is your PCV connecting in....manifold or base of carb? If manifold, what side?
Smoke while letting off the gas or all the time?
Bad or wrong size pvc valve?
What is the resistance of the plug wires?
What is the gap of the plugs?
Did the plugs smell like over rich (gas smell)
-- Edited by Enganeer on Tuesday 19th of May 2020 06:22:31 PM
-- Edited by Enganeer on Tuesday 19th of May 2020 06:27:17 PM
Bobs_Place said
May 19, 2020
I would not worry about the black plugs, 8 has good compression, 7 is down a few pounds but the plug look the same. Possible valve guides and not rings, hard to say for sure, I would run it, see how the oil consumption is. You don't know that it is oil, could be running rich. Rich mixtures will turn the plugs black very quick, the plugs are reading the idle just before you shut the engine off.
Was cyl #7 the last checked and battery getting low?
Lost in the 60s said
May 19, 2020
Well, I didn't work the past 2 days because it was too wet, now he wants me to work the rest of the week, so I won't be home on Thursday either.
jim larson said
May 20, 2020
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Well, I didn't work the past 2 days because it was too wet, now he wants me to work the rest of the week, so I won't be home on Thursday either.
No problem, maybe next week will work. I would like to put a few miles on first just to have the confidence that it will make a 150 mile round trip with no issues. Only issue is now I have to help Rachael with planting of tomatoes in the garden.
jim larson said
May 20, 2020
Bobs_Place wrote:
I would not worry about the black plugs, 8 has good compression, 7 is down a few pounds but the plug look the same. Possible valve guides and not rings, hard to say for sure, I would run it, see how the oil consumption is. You don't know that it is oil, could be running rich. Rich mixtures will turn the plugs black very quick, the plugs are reading the idle just before you shut the engine off.
Was cyl #7 the last checked and battery getting low?
My friend who came to help with filler said: shut that thing off/ it stinks. He said it was running rich. I will have to watch the oil. Yes the pug readings are just after I shut the car down at idle. I don't know if this means anything; but the #7 and #8 exhaust manifolds read a lot lower with a heat gun.
Regarding some of John's questions: PCV is located in the top of the pass side valve cover to carb. I didn't smell the plugs or check the gaps, I could pull them and check the gap; but unsure what smell I am looking for. I will check the PCV size and I know the plug but am unsure about the meaning of plug wire resistance or how to determine that. The PO put new plug wires on along with the HEI distributor. He use to be in the club and has a 66 SS Convertible and I think he would have put in the correct wires.
Time to start sanding the filler in the trunk
Bobs_Place said
May 20, 2020
jim larson wrote:
Bobs_Place wrote:
I would not worry about the black plugs, 8 has good compression, 7 is down a few pounds but the plug look the same. Possible valve guides and not rings, hard to say for sure, I would run it, see how the oil consumption is. You don't know that it is oil, could be running rich. Rich mixtures will turn the plugs black very quick, the plugs are reading the idle just before you shut the engine off.
Was cyl #7 the last checked and battery getting low?
My friend who came to help with filler said: shut that thing off/ it stinks. He said it was running rich. I will have to watch the oil. Yes the pug readings are just after I shut the car down at idle. I don't know if this means anything; but the #7 and #8 exhaust manifolds read a lot lower with a heat gun.
Regarding some of John's questions: PCV is located in the top of the pass side valve cover to carb. I didn't smell the plugs or check the gaps, I could pull them and check the gap; but unsure what smell I am looking for. I will check the PCV size and I know the plug but am unsure about the meaning of plug wire resistance or how to determine that. The PO put new plug wires on along with the HEI distributor. He use to be in the club and has a 66 SS Convertible and I think he would have put in the correct wires.
Time to start sanding the filler in the trunk
Miss fire or rich running on #7 & 8 would cause cooler exh. temps, but if both cyls were out you would know it. Intermittent miss fires is more likely which may be the result of the carb, manifold and cam combination. Some cyls. with this combination may miss more than others.
I think John question regarding the PCV is where it connects to the carb/manifold, if at the rear, possibly contributing oil to the #7 & 8 cyls? If there is oil in the PCV hose, than is there a baffle under the PCV in the valve cover? Easy to check.
jim larson said
May 20, 2020
PCV hose connect to the front of the carb. I will have to check if its working when I start the engine next. It says MADE USA and I think the part number stamp is 2072 or maybe 2052. I have read that it should problem be the one for a 69 302 camaro based on I think it has a high performance came and the 302 heads it now has along with the 350 block.
jim larson said
May 20, 2020
PCV valve is suppose to be a FV178 for a 1969 302 with a performance cam, probably hydraulic. Just to update the heads are from a 302 dated 1969. Block is a 350 truck block dated March of 1983, could be 2 or 4 bolt. Crank is unknown along with if the block was bored. Lifters are Hydraulic, Roller rockers installed before 2020, most likely in 1997-99, same for the AC Dist HEI, Carb is eldebrock built in May of 1997. Edelbrock performer intake probably date to consistent with when engine was rebuilt. Engine pad seems to indicate the block has not been decked. Probably a performance cam installed when engine was rebuild and installed. According to milage when brought to MN there has been about 8000 miles since 2000 if the titles and odometer are correct. Odometer reading at that time was about 23,000 mild. I would guess at least 123,000 or more since new for the original 327 and the rebuilt 350. Car was repainted in spring pf 1997 and supposedly had the 327 and PG went sold in Aug of 97 (according to what the owner that painted and sold the car told me, yes still alive at 76 and still living in Tucson, AZ)
Guys wife and car at summer Tucson car show photo just before he sold it.
-- Edited by jim larson on Wednesday 20th of May 2020 04:19:15 PM
I don't think you have a PCV problem, was thinking the PCV hose was connected in the rear of the carb and feeding oil to the #7 & 8.
The 302 heads give you a bump in compression and 2.02 intakes.
Lost in the 60s said
May 20, 2020
I still believe it has a vacuum leak and that is causing the very lean appearance of #3 and 5.
PCV valve should be on the left side, for internal rotational windage. Right side has a slight pressure and will push more oil thru a pcv. Left has a slight vacuum and will pull oil down, away from the valve. You need to determine if you have a baffle too.
jim larson said
May 21, 2020
Lost in the 60s wrote:
I still believe it has a vacuum leak and that is causing the very lean appearance of #3 and 5. PCV valve should be on the left side, for internal rotational windage. Right side has a slight pressure and will push more oil thru a pcv. Left has a slight vacuum and will pull oil down, away from the valve. You need to determine if you have a baffle too.
I checked and do have a baffle. The PCV is on the drivers side in my SS. It should be a simple process to switch the valve covers. Here are some better photos of the plugs. Should I change it to the one for the 302 recommended one? Which is Fram FV178.
-- Edited by jim larson on Thursday 21st of May 2020 08:48:55 AM
What is the plug number? I agree with Mitch, you might have vacuum leaks, resulting in a leaner condition on some of the plugs awhile the others are starting to foul.
Redo the intake manifold with some good gaskets and run hotter plugs and check plug color after a drive.
What thermostat or intake temps are you seeing? Some performance trends were to run a 160° stat...which kinda sucks for street use.
-- Edited by Enganeer on Thursday 21st of May 2020 02:17:31 PM
jim larson said
May 21, 2020
Enganeer wrote:
What is the plug number? I agree with Mitch, you might have vacuum leaks, resulting in a leaner condition on some of the plugs awhile the others are starting to foul.
Redo the intake manifold with some good gaskets and run hotter plugs and check plug color after a drive.
What thermostat or intake temps are you seeing? Some performance trends were to run a 160° stat...which kinda sucks for street use.
-- Edited by Enganeer on Thursday 21st of May 2020 02:17:31 PM
R44T AC Delco. I agree the intake vacuum leak is the most likely. So far 3 people can't seem to find one. That doesn't mean there isn't one. Engine temp runs at 180 after fully warned up. When I rotate the valve covers that would be a good time to consider reseal the intake.
-- Edited by jim larson on Thursday 21st of May 2020 04:19:47 PM
Lost in the 60s said
May 21, 2020
I think the plugs should an R45, may not make a huge difference, but enough to stay clean.
I wonder if the intake gasket is leaking inside and pulling oil vapor into the mix ?
Would need to get fully warmed up and pull the pcv out of the valve cover to check for any suction, or blow-by pressure. It may be very slight, so difficult to detect. A piece of newspaper may be flexible enough to detect this.
Not sure you want the 302 pvc valve. It may be designed for high rpm and low idle vacuum. It could be allowing too much air/crankcase vapors to enter the low rpm/idle mixture. The lifters on all the first gen 302's were solids.
Maybe look up the pcv number for a 1969 350, 4V application and see if it is the same.
jim larson said
May 22, 2020
I will check on the PVC valve. I switched the valve cover this morning. They were actually on the wrong side I think. There is a cutout along one side and appears To match with the intake. Now pcv on correct side and the breather in in right location. Her are a couple of photos on drivers side head. Can you tell make or anything else about rockers or anything?
These are 305 cyl heads, not 302. cannot tell any thing from the pics.
If the covers are still off , look at the #7 & 8 valve springs and valve seals.
I had a dead miss at idle only on an engine, found a week intake valve spring, I could open the valve just by pushing on it with my thumb.
jim larson said
May 22, 2020
Bobs_Place wrote:
These are 305 cyl heads, not 302. cannot tell any thing from the pics.
If the covers are still off , look at the #7 & 8 valve springs and valve seals.
I had a dead miss at idle only on an engine, found a week intake valve spring, I could open the valve just by pushing on it with my thumb.
Sorry about the mistake, I think originally I had 305 (from 83) , somehow 302 must have creapt into my head. (1.72 OR 1.84 INTAKE &1.5 exhaust). Block is 350 from 76 or 79, 3970010, 2 or 4 bolt. This block was also used on a 69 Z28, thats where I must have got confused. I just put the covers back on and took it for a 20 mile drive. Mostly between 2000 to 4500, seemed to run fine when with these numbers. Not so well when dropping below 1500. I did look at the spring; but just a quick glance. I was thinking of pulling plugs 7 & 8 tomorrow to see if they looked any different.
-- Edited by jim larson on Friday 22nd of May 2020 04:50:32 PM
Bobs_Place said
May 22, 2020
I thought you had said 305 before, when I saw the 140 casting No. 302? no way.
I think the 010 block is one of the better 350 blocks, I have 3 of them, all mid 70 4 bolt main, 2 Corvette, 1 truck, I would think your block being it's from a truck it is a 4 bolt.
The 305 heads get you 58 cc, more compression than the 302 65cc heads but smaller valves. The 305 heads have a thin deck, so not as tolerant to overheats.
jim larson said
May 23, 2020
Bobs_Place wrote:
I thought you had said 305 before, when I saw the 140 casting No. 302? no way.
I think the 010 block is one of the better 350 blocks, I have 3 of them, all mid 70 4 bolt main, 2 Corvette, 1 truck, I would think your block being it's from a truck it is a 4 bolt.
The 305 heads get you 58 cc, more compression than the 302 65cc heads but smaller valves. The 305 heads have a thin deck, so not as tolerant to overheats.
One option on an eingine that I was considering, was using the 010 block if it was a 4 bolt. Then buying a new aluminum set of the camel look alike heads with valves and springs. Maybe a steel crank, then new rods and pistons. New hydraulic cam and lifters. Reusing the performer intake or a winters intake from the mid 60's with a holley carb, and a mid 60's ignition.
Bobs_Place said
May 23, 2020
jim larson wrote:
Bobs_Place wrote:
I thought you had said 305 before, when I saw the 140 casting No. 302? no way.
I think the 010 block is one of the better 350 blocks, I have 3 of them, all mid 70 4 bolt main, 2 Corvette, 1 truck, I would think your block being it's from a truck it is a 4 bolt.
The 305 heads get you 58 cc, more compression than the 302 65cc heads but smaller valves. The 305 heads have a thin deck, so not as tolerant to overheats.
One option on an eingine that I was considering, was using the 010 block if it was a 4 bolt. Then buying a new aluminum set of the camel look alike heads with valves and springs. Maybe a steel crank, then new rods and pistons. New hydraulic cam and lifters. Reusing the performer intake or a winters intake from the mid 60's with a holley carb, and a mid 60's ignition.
If your talking crank, rod and pistons will it be a 383????
Camel Back heads, Very Cool
jim larson said
May 23, 2020
Well I decided to check the plugs after I switched the PCV to the left side and check the plug gaps. Here is a photo of what I found. I think everything except #7 looks OK. What are your thoughts? I re-gaped the plugs to .035.
-- Edited by jim larson on Saturday 23rd of May 2020 10:20:04 AM
I don't moving the PCV made any difference as it dumps in the front of the carb not in the back and I don't think you ever found oil in the line from the PCV to carb, right? But it is now on the correct side.
Going to be driving the convert I got last fall as I plan to finish the trunk work this week. Could someone explain how a TQ works and how it acts. As you may know I am having issues with the 350 SB and 350TH that replaced the original 327 and PG. If you recall, It will kill unless I have the rpms up at 1100 when shifting into gear from park or natural. I am not sure what I have for a TQ. Thanks
A TQ can have a higher than original "stall" speed, where a sudden acceleration will let it slip to a pre-determined rpm provide more rpm at a lower speed for a high performance engine.
I doubt your car has one and even if it did, many high stall converters will still allow the trans to grab enough at an idle to lug the engine some and in your situation, kill the engine.
The problem you have is not with the TQ, I believe it's with either a vacuum leak or timing. The engine should idle smoothly at 850, or lower, depending on cam.
Once you get it on the road, bring it up here. We will find the problem and correct it.
Fuel tank is going in tomorrow morning. Hope to drive it a bit to see everything is working in the afternoon. Do you plan to be off Thursday and Friday? Any day works for me providing things go smoothly tomorrow.
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 17th of May 2020 05:16:27 PM
Jim
I think what your asking is, "Will a different TQ allow the engine to idle in gear".
There are TQs that are for performance applications. They do allow the engine to idle at at a higher speed, but the main reason for using them, as Mitch was pointing out, is they allow the engine to rev to a point where it can develop more torque. The wrong convertor could cause the engine to be very sluggish at low rpm. On the other hand, a looser/performance TQ, or 'High Stall" converter in a a car with a low performance or "std every day driver" type cam would cause the engine to have to rev higher and possible past it's peek torque to move the car along, would be very inefficient.
A converter change may work, but unless you have way more cam, "very high performance" than we are aware of, I would not recommend a change.
I'm with Mitch, timing, vacuum leaks or carb.
Have you checked Vacuum at idle, say 750-800 RPM like we talked at Karl's???
This will help identify the cam.
I do have a carb that you could try if you would like. Just have to dust it off, and recheck the calibration, let me know.
Plan to do that tomorrow hopefully. Car has not been running since Nov except to move it a bit with the outboard motor tank hooked up.
I have a standing Chiropractor appointment at 9 am and don't usually work that day. Thursday forecast looks to be nice, at this time, so it could work. If Bob is receptive to bringing the carb, he could come too. Saw my vacuum gauge today, but need to find my timing light. Pretty sure it's here.
Let’s wait a bit and see what Mitch come up with. I was also going to fullywarm up the engine and check the compression again as you mentioned because I did that with a cold engine, we also talked about that at Karl’s. And I was also going to check my base timing and also with the VC hooked up. I think I was at 14 base and the VC was adding 20 at idle.
I have vacuum gauge installed on line from intake to power brace booster that I can read from under the hood. Also have dial back timing light with rpm gauge and also one from the 60’s.
Carb was supposedly rebuilt last summer. I tried to Adjust idle mixture screws according to Edelbrock. And I also installed correct adapter and heat shield. But it could be the carb.
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 17th of May 2020 05:39:37 PM
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 17th of May 2020 05:52:18 PM
Just to be clear, on the timing, I think your base + vac timing sounds good, Is it 14* at 750-800 or 1100? 14 base, 20 vac = 34* at idle, I like it!!!
But what we need to find out is do we loose some timing when you put the car in gear. You would need a helper to check it, wife or neighbor to put the car in gear, the mark shouldn't move when the trans is shifted into gear. Be sure your helper is hard on the brakes!!!!
Also and as we spoke when checking compression, open the throttle, engine up to temp and all plugs removed. Also good to remove the power wire from the dist, when done don't forget to close the throttle before you crank the engine!!!
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Sunday 17th of May 2020 06:27:48 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Sunday 17th of May 2020 06:32:19 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Sunday 17th of May 2020 06:42:57 PM
I had a similar issue with the Malibu dying when put into Drive, and it turned out to be the carb/timing so X3 to start there.
Well I got the fuel tank installed today. Everything seemed OK so I put in 10 gallons and let the car thoroughly warm up ; but just drove around the block on the way to the gas station. Seemed a little hesitant maybe missing a bit.
Back at the garage after it was warmed up I decided to recheck a few things for Bob and Mitch.
Base timing seemed to register 11 degrees at 600 rpm with VC Plugged and vacuum gauge read about 7"
When I hooked up the VC timing went to 33 degree and 950 rpm with timing light and 12" of vacuum. Inside tack reading 1000 rpm
When I had Rachael step on the brake and shift into Reverse Timing dropped to about 15 degrees and about 4" of vacuum. Car did not kill but just about did, likes idle set at about 1100 rpm by inside tack. Did not check what happens if I shifted into Drive.
Lights checked, brakes checked, along with oil, water, trans fluid. Forgot PS Fluid. Plan to drive it about 10 miles tomorrow and check the compression Per Bob's Instruction.
Photo is how I have vacuum gauge hooked up..
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 18th of May 2020 02:27:48 PM
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 18th of May 2020 02:35:35 PM
-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 18th of May 2020 03:22:20 PM
Where are you pulling the vacuum reading from ? That can have a big influence on the reading.
If you are pulling vacuum from the intake manifold, it has to have a vacuum leak, or the engine is completely wore out, OR someone put a new cam in and missed the timing mark.
Or a performance cam
Good news on the timing, nice work.
Looks like some distributor work is in order.
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 07:43:30 PM
-- Edited by Bobs_Place on Monday 18th of May 2020 08:20:20 PM
Vacuum is coming from intake, the line that feeds the PB booster. When car is a cruise speed, say steady at 50 mph vacuum sits steady at 17. My guess is that there is a different cam at least, since engine was a make up of different components. A 350 truck block, 305 heads, roller rockers, performer intake and edelbrock carb dated 1997. A previous owner said it had the original 327 and PG in it when he sold it. When the guy from MN bought it in Jan of 2000 it had the current engine.
The guy I got it from said he just put in a new distributor and plug wires. Hw also gave me the old distributor.
Does it have a lumpy idle like it has a big cam ?
Wonder if the lifters are too tight ?
You mention is seems to have a miss.
Your dist would work good in an engine that idles at 500 to 550 RPM and 15 to 18". It just needs some "adjustment." As I recall this is an HEI dist. Most all HETs were used in EGR emissions engine, they used vacuum advance units that start advancing at 3 to 5" and all in by 12 to 14", centrifugal stars just above idle. With your engine at 800 to 950 and vac at 10 to 12" both cent. and vac. adv are retarding timing when going into gear, 15* maybe 200 to 250 RPM, before the trans loads the engine.
Would you rather use the old dist? I also have 2 or 3 HEI that you could try that I think would work.
I think it sounds like a big cam; but no expert on that subject. I have no idea of how to determine if it has lifter that are too tight. Just that it has roller rockers. I plan to drive about 20 miles today and then check CR. I just added a little Marvel Mystery oil today, as I always use it in the SS.
Yes it an HEI unit. I don't really care at this time if I use an old style disc or a HEI unit. I have a New Disc for a 66 style Chevy SB in the garage; but probably would need to get new plugs & coil. In the long run would like to go with the old set up of disc & coil with a pentronix unit. Going to drive the car today, then pull the plugs and see what they look like and do the CR test according to your recommendations.
Well here is what I got. Drove the car about 15 miles this morning from 1100-4000 rpm. Got interrupted until after lunch, so just drove around the block and let car idle until fully warm. Noticed #7 & #8 exhaust not as hot as the others ??
plugs seemed ok to me on 1,2,3,4,5,6. #7 & #8 looked kind of oily; I am not that good at interpretation by looking at the plugs so included a photo.
Also a photo of the cylinder compression.
Somethings that come to mind.
Where is your PCV connecting in....manifold or base of carb? If manifold, what side?
Smoke while letting off the gas or all the time?
Bad or wrong size pvc valve?
What is the resistance of the plug wires?
What is the gap of the plugs?
Did the plugs smell like over rich (gas smell)
-- Edited by Enganeer on Tuesday 19th of May 2020 06:22:31 PM
-- Edited by Enganeer on Tuesday 19th of May 2020 06:27:17 PM
I would not worry about the black plugs, 8 has good compression, 7 is down a few pounds but the plug look the same. Possible valve guides and not rings, hard to say for sure, I would run it, see how the oil consumption is. You don't know that it is oil, could be running rich. Rich mixtures will turn the plugs black very quick, the plugs are reading the idle just before you shut the engine off.
Was cyl #7 the last checked and battery getting low?
No problem, maybe next week will work. I would like to put a few miles on first just to have the confidence that it will make a 150 mile round trip with no issues. Only issue is now I have to help Rachael with planting of tomatoes in the garden.
My friend who came to help with filler said: shut that thing off/ it stinks. He said it was running rich. I will have to watch the oil. Yes the pug readings are just after I shut the car down at idle. I don't know if this means anything; but the #7 and #8 exhaust manifolds read a lot lower with a heat gun.
Regarding some of John's questions: PCV is located in the top of the pass side valve cover to carb. I didn't smell the plugs or check the gaps, I could pull them and check the gap; but unsure what smell I am looking for. I will check the PCV size and I know the plug but am unsure about the meaning of plug wire resistance or how to determine that. The PO put new plug wires on along with the HEI distributor. He use to be in the club and has a 66 SS Convertible and I think he would have put in the correct wires.
Time to start sanding the filler in the trunk
Miss fire or rich running on #7 & 8 would cause cooler exh. temps, but if both cyls were out you would know it. Intermittent miss fires is more likely which may be the result of the carb, manifold and cam combination. Some cyls. with this combination may miss more than others.
I think John question regarding the PCV is where it connects to the carb/manifold, if at the rear, possibly contributing oil to the #7 & 8 cyls? If there is oil in the PCV hose, than is there a baffle under the PCV in the valve cover? Easy to check.
PCV hose connect to the front of the carb. I will have to check if its working when I start the engine next. It says MADE USA and I think the part number stamp is 2072 or maybe 2052. I have read that it should problem be the one for a 69 302 camaro based on I think it has a high performance came and the 302 heads it now has along with the 350 block.
PCV valve is suppose to be a FV178 for a 1969 302 with a performance cam, probably hydraulic. Just to update the heads are from a 302 dated 1969. Block is a 350 truck block dated March of 1983, could be 2 or 4 bolt. Crank is unknown along with if the block was bored. Lifters are Hydraulic, Roller rockers installed before 2020, most likely in 1997-99, same for the AC Dist HEI, Carb is eldebrock built in May of 1997. Edelbrock performer intake probably date to consistent with when engine was rebuilt. Engine pad seems to indicate the block has not been decked. Probably a performance cam installed when engine was rebuild and installed. According to milage when brought to MN there has been about 8000 miles since 2000 if the titles and odometer are correct. Odometer reading at that time was about 23,000 mild. I would guess at least 123,000 or more since new for the original 327 and the rebuilt 350. Car was repainted in spring pf 1997 and supposedly had the 327 and PG went sold in Aug of 97 (according to what the owner that painted and sold the car told me, yes still alive at 76 and still living in Tucson, AZ)
Guys wife and car at summer Tucson car show photo just before he sold it.
-- Edited by jim larson on Wednesday 20th of May 2020 04:19:15 PM
I don't think you have a PCV problem, was thinking the PCV hose was connected in the rear of the carb and feeding oil to the #7 & 8.
The 302 heads give you a bump in compression and 2.02 intakes.
PCV valve should be on the left side, for internal rotational windage. Right side has a slight pressure and will push more oil thru a pcv. Left has a slight vacuum and will pull oil down, away from the valve. You need to determine if you have a baffle too.
I checked and do have a baffle. The PCV is on the drivers side in my SS. It should be a simple process to switch the valve covers. Here are some better photos of the plugs. Should I change it to the one for the 302 recommended one? Which is Fram FV178.
-- Edited by jim larson on Thursday 21st of May 2020 08:48:55 AM
What is the plug number? I agree with Mitch, you might have vacuum leaks, resulting in a leaner condition on some of the plugs awhile the others are starting to foul.
Redo the intake manifold with some good gaskets and run hotter plugs and check plug color after a drive.
What thermostat or intake temps are you seeing? Some performance trends were to run a 160° stat...which kinda sucks for street use.
-- Edited by Enganeer on Thursday 21st of May 2020 02:17:31 PM
R44T AC Delco. I agree the intake vacuum leak is the most likely. So far 3 people can't seem to find one. That doesn't mean there isn't one. Engine temp runs at 180 after fully warned up. When I rotate the valve covers that would be a good time to consider reseal the intake.
-- Edited by jim larson on Thursday 21st of May 2020 04:19:47 PM
I wonder if the intake gasket is leaking inside and pulling oil vapor into the mix ?
Would need to get fully warmed up and pull the pcv out of the valve cover to check for any suction, or blow-by pressure. It may be very slight, so difficult to detect. A piece of newspaper may be flexible enough to detect this.
Not sure you want the 302 pvc valve. It may be designed for high rpm and low idle vacuum. It could be allowing too much air/crankcase vapors to enter the low rpm/idle mixture. The lifters on all the first gen 302's were solids.
Maybe look up the pcv number for a 1969 350, 4V application and see if it is the same.
I will check on the PVC valve. I switched the valve cover this morning. They were actually on the wrong side I think. There is a cutout along one side and appears To match with the intake. Now pcv on correct side and the breather in in right location. Her are a couple of photos on drivers side head. Can you tell make or anything else about rockers or anything?
These are 305 cyl heads, not 302. cannot tell any thing from the pics.
If the covers are still off , look at the #7 & 8 valve springs and valve seals.
I had a dead miss at idle only on an engine, found a week intake valve spring, I could open the valve just by pushing on it with my thumb.
Sorry about the mistake, I think originally I had 305 (from 83) , somehow 302 must have creapt into my head. (1.72 OR 1.84 INTAKE &1.5 exhaust). Block is 350 from 76 or 79, 3970010, 2 or 4 bolt. This block was also used on a 69 Z28, thats where I must have got confused. I just put the covers back on and took it for a 20 mile drive. Mostly between 2000 to 4500, seemed to run fine when with these numbers. Not so well when dropping below 1500. I did look at the spring; but just a quick glance. I was thinking of pulling plugs 7 & 8 tomorrow to see if they looked any different.
-- Edited by jim larson on Friday 22nd of May 2020 04:50:32 PM
I thought you had said 305 before, when I saw the 140 casting No. 302? no way.
I think the 010 block is one of the better 350 blocks, I have 3 of them, all mid 70 4 bolt main, 2 Corvette, 1 truck, I would think your block being it's from a truck it is a 4 bolt.
The 305 heads get you 58 cc, more compression than the 302 65cc heads but smaller valves. The 305 heads have a thin deck, so not as tolerant to overheats.
One option on an eingine that I was considering, was using the 010 block if it was a 4 bolt. Then buying a new aluminum set of the camel look alike heads with valves and springs. Maybe a steel crank, then new rods and pistons. New hydraulic cam and lifters. Reusing the performer intake or a winters intake from the mid 60's with a holley carb, and a mid 60's ignition.
If your talking crank, rod and pistons will it be a 383????
Camel Back heads, Very Cool
Well I decided to check the plugs after I switched the PCV to the left side and check the plug gaps. Here is a photo of what I found. I think everything except #7 looks OK. What are your thoughts? I re-gaped the plugs to .035.
-- Edited by jim larson on Saturday 23rd of May 2020 10:20:04 AM
They do look better, less idling.
I don't moving the PCV made any difference as it dumps in the front of the carb not in the back and I don't think you ever found oil in the line from the PCV to carb, right? But it is now on the correct side.