Well the starter didn't engage. Went under the car and jumped the battery post to the S (start terminal) on the solenoid. Starter engages. Went in the car and car started. Shut off and tried to restart, starter did not engage. Went under car again and jumped power to the S terminal and starter engaged. Went inside and starter worked. Tried this several times. Went for a short drive yesterday and things worked fine. But leary to go more than a few miles from home. Suggestions on how to fix or diagnose the problem. Don't want the get stranded on the road with no easy access to starter?
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 27th of October 2019 07:44:55 AM
Bobs_Place said
Oct 27, 2019
Jim
Car look great.
Not real clear on what the starter is doing when the car does not start. Does the starter spin freely without turning the engine, or does it just not do anything? If the starter cranks the engine normally when you jump at the starter, I suspect there is nothing wrong with the starter. So I suspect low voltage to the "S" terminal during cranking. Try moving the shifter when cranking. Move from park to neutral and back. If you can get to the neutral safety (ether on the column or in the counsel if counsel shifter---I think) you can jump from power to one of the purple wires, if the engine cranks normal than the check the neutral safety and ignition switches and there connections, make sure there in good power to the ignition switch, if you find that you do not have good power at the ignition switch, check the 10R wire and the 12R connections at the junction block next to the battery. If the engine does not crank when jumping power to the neutral switch wire (one of the purple wires) than check/clean connection at the starter "S" terminal. There is also a possibility of a bad connection a the firewall plug, the 12v power supply wire is also in that plug.
hope this helps
Bob
jim larson said
Oct 27, 2019
Bobs_Place wrote:
Jim
Car look great.
Not real clear on what the starter is doing when the car does not start. Does the starter spin freely without turning the engine, or does it just not do anything? If the starter cranks the engine normally when you jump at the starter, I suspect there is nothing wrong with the starter. So I suspect low voltage to the "S" terminal during cranking. Try moving the shifter when cranking. Move from park to neutral and back. If you can get to the neutral safety (ether on the column or in the counsel if counsel shifter---I think) you can jump from power to one of the purple wires, if the engine cranks normal than the check the neutral safety and ignition switches and there connections, make sure there in good power to the ignition switch, if you find that you do not have good power at the ignition switch, check the 10R wire and the 12R connections at the junction block next to the battery. If the engine does not crank when jumping power to the neutral switch wire (one of the purple wires) than check/clean connection at the starter "S" terminal. There is also a possibility of a bad connection a the firewall plug, the 12v power supply wire is also in that plug.
hope this helps
Bob
Car is in park, I turn key to start and nothing happens. Then I make sure ignition if off and car is in park and go under car and use a screwdriver to connect the S post to the big post where the cable come from the battery. The starter engages and turns. I then go back and turn the ignition to start and starter engages and car starts. Then I turn ignition off and engine stops. Then I turn ignition to start and nothing. I repeat the process under the car and turn the ignition to start and the starter engages and starts the car. I turn the ignition off and then turn it on again to start. Starter works and engine starts. I do this about 5 time and starter works each time.
I am also thinking low voltage to the S post on the solenoid. Automatic column shift. Where are the purple wires on the neutral safety switch? What power source do I jump to the purple wires. I feel pretty good on understanding when to check/clean the starter S terminal; but all that regarding checking neutral safety and ignition switches and there connections, especially where the ignition switch is located might not be in my wheelhouse. On the 12R power to the plug on the firewall where do I check it. in the fuse panel? I will also check the 10R and 12R wires at the junction block for 12 volts.
I was thinking of making some kind of wire set-u with a switch to jump the S terminal to the Battery positive post, so I can do that and then use the ignition start to start the car when the ignition start doesn't work. Or is that not feasible?
Bobs_Place said
Oct 28, 2019
Sounds like this is an intermittent problem, that complicates things.
I suggested starting at the neutral switch be cause that is about the middle of the crank circuit. If the problem exists when putting power to the wire that goes from the neutral switch to starter than look at connections after the neutral switch. If however the engine cranks fine when powering the above wire, check neutral and ignition switches and connections, everything before the neutral switch. This test relies on a good 12v supply to the purple wire that feeds the starter.
So the best place to get power is the battery, or with a convertible, the wire that supplies the power top switch could be a good source of power as long as the connections are good toward the battery. You can also try cranking the engine with the head lights on, if they go very dim when you try to crank the engine you may have poor connections at the junction block or a bad battery.
The neutral safety switch should be located on the column inside toward the front, there would be backup light and start wires on that switch, the purple wire are for the crank circuit.
One more thing to consider, this ts a 50+ year old car, don't trust any thing, connections may look good, but the only way to know for sure is to take them apart and clean them. Also corrosion on crimp connectors can be a problem, again may look good but have high resistance. Some times you can find a bad connection by holding the key in the crank position for a shot time than check for a hot connection, hot connection is high resistance/voltage drops.
Good luck hope you find it.
John D said
Oct 28, 2019
As suggested check voltage at the S terminal during cranking...
Then... when it's "stuck" in a no-start condition and SAFE to do so, foot firmly on the brakes:
- With the key turned to start (and it's not cranking), wiggle/move the gear selector out of park, past reverse, into neutral and back. Did it try and crank?
Yes = faulty NSS or faulty NSS adjustment
No?
- Unplug the NSS and make a short jumper wire of similar gauge and jumper between the two purple wires (negating the NSS and completing the circuit). Turn the key to Start. Did it crank?
Yes = faulty NSS or faulty NSS adjustment
No?
- Remove the jumper. Set your meter to DC volts and ground the (-) probe. Insert the (+) probe into the socket of the NSS (purple wire) that's coming from the Ignition switch and turn the key to Start. (Unless you know which it is, there's a 50/50 chance of getting the correct one...)
Wiggle the key, and cycle the switch a few times... Did you get +12V? (if not try the other purple wire)
No = faulty ignition switch or ignition switch connections
Yes (while wiggling/cycling) = faulty ignition switch or ignition switch connections
Yes every time clean & consistent? = good ignition switch
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 28, 2019
Can well be the ignition switch itself...not an uncommon problem with them after 50+ years, especially on a car that has sat a lot. If all the other tests pass, I would suspect the switch.
jim larson said
Oct 30, 2019
Thanks for the tips guys. After reading the posts a couple of times each and looking at the wiring diagrams things are starting to become clear. The car has started every time, about 20, the last few days. I hope the problem either doesn't present itself or happens in the garage. I have an extra ignition switch and it looks like a task in its self to change. I have to explore how to access or change the NSS.
Well the starter didn't engage. Went under the car and jumped the battery post to the S (start terminal) on the solenoid. Starter engages. Went in the car and car started. Shut off and tried to restart, starter did not engage. Went under car again and jumped power to the S terminal and starter engaged. Went inside and starter worked. Tried this several times. Went for a short drive yesterday and things worked fine. But leary to go more than a few miles from home. Suggestions on how to fix or diagnose the problem. Don't want the get stranded on the road with no easy access to starter?
-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 27th of October 2019 07:44:55 AM
Jim
Car look great.
Not real clear on what the starter is doing when the car does not start. Does the starter spin freely without turning the engine, or does it just not do anything? If the starter cranks the engine normally when you jump at the starter, I suspect there is nothing wrong with the starter. So I suspect low voltage to the "S" terminal during cranking. Try moving the shifter when cranking. Move from park to neutral and back. If you can get to the neutral safety (ether on the column or in the counsel if counsel shifter---I think) you can jump from power to one of the purple wires, if the engine cranks normal than the check the neutral safety and ignition switches and there connections, make sure there in good power to the ignition switch, if you find that you do not have good power at the ignition switch, check the 10R wire and the 12R connections at the junction block next to the battery. If the engine does not crank when jumping power to the neutral switch wire (one of the purple wires) than check/clean connection at the starter "S" terminal. There is also a possibility of a bad connection a the firewall plug, the 12v power supply wire is also in that plug.
hope this helps
Bob
Car is in park, I turn key to start and nothing happens. Then I make sure ignition if off and car is in park and go under car and use a screwdriver to connect the S post to the big post where the cable come from the battery. The starter engages and turns. I then go back and turn the ignition to start and starter engages and car starts. Then I turn ignition off and engine stops. Then I turn ignition to start and nothing. I repeat the process under the car and turn the ignition to start and the starter engages and starts the car. I turn the ignition off and then turn it on again to start. Starter works and engine starts. I do this about 5 time and starter works each time.
I am also thinking low voltage to the S post on the solenoid. Automatic column shift. Where are the purple wires on the neutral safety switch? What power source do I jump to the purple wires. I feel pretty good on understanding when to check/clean the starter S terminal; but all that regarding checking neutral safety and ignition switches and there connections, especially where the ignition switch is located might not be in my wheelhouse. On the 12R power to the plug on the firewall where do I check it. in the fuse panel? I will also check the 10R and 12R wires at the junction block for 12 volts.
I was thinking of making some kind of wire set-u with a switch to jump the S terminal to the Battery positive post, so I can do that and then use the ignition start to start the car when the ignition start doesn't work. Or is that not feasible?
Sounds like this is an intermittent problem, that complicates things.
I suggested starting at the neutral switch be cause that is about the middle of the crank circuit. If the problem exists when putting power to the wire that goes from the neutral switch to starter than look at connections after the neutral switch. If however the engine cranks fine when powering the above wire, check neutral and ignition switches and connections, everything before the neutral switch. This test relies on a good 12v supply to the purple wire that feeds the starter.
So the best place to get power is the battery, or with a convertible, the wire that supplies the power top switch could be a good source of power as long as the connections are good toward the battery. You can also try cranking the engine with the head lights on, if they go very dim when you try to crank the engine you may have poor connections at the junction block or a bad battery.
The neutral safety switch should be located on the column inside toward the front, there would be backup light and start wires on that switch, the purple wire are for the crank circuit.
One more thing to consider, this ts a 50+ year old car, don't trust any thing, connections may look good, but the only way to know for sure is to take them apart and clean them. Also corrosion on crimp connectors can be a problem, again may look good but have high resistance. Some times you can find a bad connection by holding the key in the crank position for a shot time than check for a hot connection, hot connection is high resistance/voltage drops.
Good luck hope you find it.
Then... when it's "stuck" in a no-start condition and SAFE to do so, foot firmly on the brakes:
- With the key turned to start (and it's not cranking), wiggle/move the gear selector out of park, past reverse, into neutral and back. Did it try and crank?
Yes = faulty NSS or faulty NSS adjustment
No?
- Unplug the NSS and make a short jumper wire of similar gauge and jumper between the two purple wires (negating the NSS and completing the circuit). Turn the key to Start. Did it crank?
Yes = faulty NSS or faulty NSS adjustment
No?
- Remove the jumper. Set your meter to DC volts and ground the (-) probe. Insert the (+) probe into the socket of the NSS (purple wire) that's coming from the Ignition switch and turn the key to Start. (Unless you know which it is, there's a 50/50 chance of getting the correct one...)
Wiggle the key, and cycle the switch a few times... Did you get +12V? (if not try the other purple wire)
No = faulty ignition switch or ignition switch connections
Yes (while wiggling/cycling) = faulty ignition switch or ignition switch connections
Yes every time clean & consistent? = good ignition switch
Thanks for the tips guys. After reading the posts a couple of times each and looking at the wiring diagrams things are starting to become clear. The car has started every time, about 20, the last few days. I hope the problem either doesn't present itself or happens in the garage. I have an extra ignition switch and it looks like a task in its self to change. I have to explore how to access or change the NSS.
Thanks again, Jim