I have run up against a wall with my skills, tools, and knowledge to trouble-shoot my ignition (so I think) issue.
Admittedly I have not had/dedicated much time in late summer/fall to work on the issue. I'd like to try to get this engine started before the winter or at least diagnose the issue so I can order parts and prepare for spring.
Background;
The tech session in June discovered that the timing was off along with some tuning of the carburetor. The club got the car running and I drove 40+ occasions between June and July. Then I had an electric fan relay fail that caused the car to overheat twice. I pulled over to allow to cool and was able to start/drive the car home. Before I discovered the fan relay issue I had replaced the thermostat and afterwards I was not able to get the car running. In a panic I also replaced the spark plugs thinking that I flooded the engine (I was trying in desperation to bring vehicle to summer nationals). The relay works and the fans have been running great (changed from 30 Amp to 40 Amp), but I can't seem to get the car to fire. I checked the fluids to ensure no major damage was done during overheating and the fluids don't appear to be mixed.
I grounded the spark plug and I am seeing spark. There is fuel in the bowls and is spraying when the throttle level/linkage is moved. The distributor is somewhat old and I have not pulled it to look for other obvious damage. I dropped in a new distributor cap and I have been slightly rotating during start-up. I am running an Ignitor along with a Flamethrower coil. I am not opposed to converting to an electronic ignition system.
Help needed;
Double-check my efforts - spark plug gap, firing order, general wiring, etc. I did not adjust much, but perhaps I"m missing something obvious. Bob suggested to separate the wire at the cap to give a little more juice at the plug.
Help me with timing - I don't have a timing gun, but I can get one. Most people I speak with suspect the timing is the issue.
Perform compression check - again, I don't have a gauge, but I can get one.
Review the carburetor linkage and floats as a possible cause.
Please let me know if you can help this weekend, during weeknights, or next weekend. Reply to this post or text/call my cell. I will do my best to be flexible to work around other's schedules. I do not have a heated garage, unfortunately.
Updating 22 Oct @ 7:50 PM to include my address..... 319 Vincent Ave. N. Minneapolis, MN 55405. Neighborhood is Bryn Mawr - between Penn and Highway 100 north of 394.
Thanks,
Andrew 612 226 6249
-- Edited by AK on Tuesday 22nd of October 2019 07:52:32 PM
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 22, 2019
Dang, I forgot to pull the distributor and coil from my 350 when I moved. It is now buried 18 ft inside a storage locker that is packed 8-10 ft high to the door.
You lost me with the thermostat change. I can't think of any way that would cause the engine to not start again. You say it ran to get home and then never did after the thermostat change ??? Any chance you knocked the pcv hose off the carb/intake nipple and it has a major vacuum leak ?
If you have spark and fuel, it should fire....maybe not run, if something is off, but it should fire while cranking over. If you have spark, the Igniter ignition and coil are working.
Were the spark plugs wet when you removed them ?
The Igniter is electronic, albeit a conversion, in a stock distributor.
I can't help this weekend, but if you don't get it running, I can see what the following weekend looks like.
Larry Lucast said
Oct 22, 2019
I PMed you. I have a distributor and necessary tools. I would be glad to come look on Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
dashboard said
Oct 22, 2019
Stuck float in the carb???
AK said
Oct 22, 2019
Hey Mitch,
No worries on the distributor - you mentioned it at Hastings and I was still working on replacing my daily driver and never got back to you. Larry L reached out and thinks he may have a spare distributor along with a compression gauge and timing gun.
For the thermostat change - I agree, I don't think that is related whatsoever to start-up, but I just wanted to point out the items I changed out. I was nervous that the thermostat may have went bad after overheating and I didn't want to put the engine at risk. That said, I dropped a 160F into it at first and then went back to the 180/190F (I can't recall exactly).... engine did not start in either case... and I had not yet replaced the fan relay before attempting to start with both thermostats.
PCV hose - Come to think of it, there was a vacuum leak leading up to the time this stopped running...... but I connected a few hoses and went away.... I thought it was related to the cowl induction line/valve. Definitely something to check out! Still learning all the time. Thanks!
I think that the timing may be off as from what I can tell as there is fuel, spark and, fingers-crossed, strong compression. Hard to think something like the timing chain is off already.
The plugs were not obviously wet, but in desperation I replaced them.
Thanks.
AK said
Oct 22, 2019
Thanks much, Larry.
Looking at the weather I threw out a start time of 11:30 AM or noon.
As always anyone can come or go as schedules allow... hopefully can be resolved within a few short hours.
If we end up meeting this weekend club members can call me for updates.... 612 226 6 249
For those of you that remember the June fun - I have a new battery along with a new daily driver if needed.
AK said
Oct 22, 2019
Hey Kevin,
Yes, possibly and thanks for the suggestion. Bob and I looked at some mock carb setups last weekend at the Classic Auto Repair event and he suggested looking into the carb further. My knowledge on carbs is not great, but we can start with the other items and work through the system.
Thanks again,
Andrew
612 226 624 9
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 23, 2019
If the plugs were/are dry, I would rule out a stuck float, as that will flood the cylinders greatly.
If the distributor was locked down firmly after the June change, it should not have moved.
Having the timing off in June and, possibly, again now, leads me to wonder about the timing chain. I had the engine timed after the install and it shouldn't have been off in June either, unless it wasn't tight enough and rotated.
If you find the timing is way off again, I would suspect a chain issue. That could also be a symptom of the overheating...which you have been dealing with for 2 summers now.
It may be possible the roll pin in the distributor gear has sheared and allowed that gear to rotate on the shaft too, but I think that is a remote scenario, still wouldn't hurt to inspect that, if/when you pull the dizzy out.
Larry Lucast said
Oct 23, 2019
I will be there at 11:30 on Saturday. I will bring a distributor with wires, timing light and compression tester, and misc small parts.
I believe Andrew and I can handle it, so don't feel obligated to come, but more hands and/or eyes can never hurt.
AK said
Oct 23, 2019
Thanks for the suggestions, Mitch. From what I can tell the distributor didn't move much, if at all. We will start on the ignition side and work towards the timing chain. I noticed a small nut in the ignitor was loose, but not severely.
Bobs_Place said
Oct 24, 2019
Andrew
I can make Sat. 11:30, I'll also try to put together parts/tools we may need.
Don't believe that the cam jumped time as the engine must have been rebuilt to get it to 468 cubs and there for the timing set would have been replaced. But, can't rule it out as stranger thing have happened.
AK said
Oct 25, 2019
Bob,
That will be great, thanks.
Another set of eyes will help.
I also invited my co-worker, Nate, and he might join us the learn and help, where possible.
Address is 319 Vincent Avenue North Minneapolis 55405.
Cell is 612 226 62 4 9.
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 25, 2019
Bobs_Place wrote:
Andrew
I can make Sat. 11:30, I'll also try to put together parts/tools we may need.
Don't believe that the cam jumped time as the engine must have been rebuilt to get it to 468 cubs and there for the timing set would have been replaced. But, can't rule it out as stranger thing have happened.
Andrew can fill in more details of the engine, but as I remember him saying, it was rebuilt some time ago and then the cam went flat. Don't recall if he said that was replaced under a warranty, but if the build included the plastic covered cam gear that GM installed, it could be worn with the higher spring rates now. I WOULDN'T think the timing has jumped, but the symptoms seem to indicate that as a possibility.
Bobs_Place said
Oct 25, 2019
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Bobs_Place wrote:
Andrew
I can make Sat. 11:30, I'll also try to put together parts/tools we may need.
Don't believe that the cam jumped time as the engine must have been rebuilt to get it to 468 cubs and there for the timing set would have been replaced. But, can't rule it out as stranger thing have happened.
Andrew can fill in more details of the engine, but as I remember him saying, it was rebuilt some time ago and then the cam went flat. Don't recall if he said that was replaced under a warranty, but if the build included the plastic covered cam gear that GM installed, it could be worn with the higher spring rates now. I WOULDN'T think the timing has jumped, but the symptoms seem to indicate that as a possibility.
Ya, any thing is possible, hopefully the builder wouldn't have used the plastic. Any chance the engine has a roller cam and they didn't install the correct dist. gear?
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 25, 2019
YES, I'm quite certain Andrew said he had a roller installed the second time to eliminate the need of using additives in the oil...
Bobs_Place said
Oct 25, 2019
Lost in the 60s wrote:
YES, I'm quite certain Andrew said he had a roller installed the second time to eliminate the need of using additives in the oil...
Well, we'll check timing first, see where it's at, if the timing is correct we still may want to inspect the gear, maybe Andrew know what was installed.
AK said
Oct 25, 2019
Yes indeed the cam went flat after about 15,000 miles after rebuilding in 2006 I didn't know zinc was needed for hydraulic lifters.
had a rebuilt in 2014 with roller cam no warranty it was at performance Concepts. gene pearson has a shop out of his house in Forest Lake - was recommended by my former mechanic growing up.
I can try to find the build sheet that should reference to cam part number.
I,m not sure if the distributor was replaced after that rebuild ... the gear might not be right perhaps that's a culprit.
AK said
Oct 25, 2019
Correct that. It appears the gear was replaced ...
Although this is the same engine that had the incorrect oil pan size 🐂🐂
cam part number is attached
i,ll to have to look it up shortly
-- Edited by AK on Friday 25th of October 2019 09:30:17 PM
Many, many thanks to Larry and Bob for stopping over on Saturday to help!
With their tools we checked the timing. Although we had a tough time finding the last timing mark it appears the timing was still ok. However, when we checked the voltage across the system it was discovered that the coil was less than optimal. I previously mentioned there was spark at the plug, but Larry and Bob indicated the signal was weak.
Fortunately, I had my old coil available and we dropped that into place and with a little coercing (jumping, multiple batteries, etc) we were able to fire up the engine!
Bob also noticed that I had twos plugs reversed. I had an unexpected date night Saturday and drove the wife to St. Paul and back. I turned off/started the car several times Saturday night and took the daughter for a cruise yesterday. Fans are working well. Might be a few electrical gremlins lurking as my power door locks are not functioning.
Thanks for spending your valuable Saturday afternoon helping!
I have much less anxiety knowing there was no engine damage due to overheating. I’m looking forward to spring to continue working (electronic ignition, perhaps), but more importantly to drive this beast to some shows!
Bobs_Place said
Oct 28, 2019
We found a bad coil
I thought AK would chime in with excitement, he must still be in la la land,driving the car or what ever.
After talking to AK about when the cam was replace and seeing the parts list we cam to the conclusion that the timing chain and sprockets were not the issue, next the dist gear, I looked on line and found that the correct gear was used.
So we checked spark found very week spark at the plug, not much better at the coil, so because coils are usually quite reliable we thought remove the dist with the electronic pickup and install a known good point dist, but after thinking about it and lunch we asked AK if he had a coil to try, just because it's easy, much better 3/4 to1" of spark. So after messing with the timing and low charge bat. the car started.
Thinking back to the June excitement, could this be the cause of the no start problem back then We also looked at the spark at the end of the plug wire, there was much less than at the coil, as I recall 3/8 to1/2", so I wonder if the electronics are out of time with the rotor, or, firing the spark when the rotor is not lined up with the cap electrodes. Should be looked at, maybe there is a way to adjust the pickup? Or different dist.?
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 28, 2019
Just my opinion, but at this time and with this many issues with spark/timing, I would vote for a new distributor and matching coil.
His current Pertonix is an older unit and the coil was replaced with all the work 2 years ago, to match the Pertronix conversion in the distributor. May have been a defective coil right from the start. There are much better and more reliable Pertonix ignition systems available today, along with others.
And we still need to get 1 more floor pan patch installed and then the carpet...
-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Monday 28th of October 2019 02:37:06 PM
AK said
Oct 28, 2019
So much fun I haven't been able to type!!!! I meant to post an update last night!
I fired it up again this evening and i will likely take it out this weekend for a last cruise.
I agree with Mitch most likely prepare for an upgrade.
Thanks again as it has been a blast to drive again!
Lots of thanks to the club for the recommendations, input and help!
It still would be sitting in the garage not running without your help.
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 28, 2019
Chris R said
Oct 29, 2019
I think I would remove all the pertronix stuff & replace with the Breakerless Ignition products Classic Auto Repair recommended at our last meeting/Tour.
AK said
Oct 29, 2019
Thanks for the suggestions on the ignition.
Looking at that picture in Mitch's post - Hard to believe all the progress in such a short timeframe!
67ss said
Oct 29, 2019
In my opinion why wouldn’t you put an hei in it? It fits without modification and will be trouble free. Parts for it can be bought at about any local auto store.
Bobs_Place said
Oct 29, 2019
I,m running points, have had no problems, starts and run well, no misfires up high.
If/when I choose to upgrade I would opt for the HEI over a brakerless replacement.
I have run up against a wall
with my skills, tools, and knowledge 
to trouble-shoot my ignition (so I think) issue.
Admittedly I have not had/dedicated much time in late summer/fall to work on the issue. I'd like to try to get this engine started before the winter or at least diagnose the issue so I can order parts and prepare for spring.
Background;
The tech session in June discovered that the timing was off along with some tuning of the carburetor. The club got the car running and I drove 40+ occasions between June and July. Then I had an electric fan relay fail that caused the car to overheat twice. I pulled over to allow to cool and was able to start/drive the car home. Before I discovered the fan relay issue I had replaced the thermostat and afterwards I was not able to get the car running. In a panic I also replaced the spark plugs thinking that I flooded the engine (I was trying in desperation to bring vehicle to summer nationals). The relay works and the fans have been running great (changed from 30 Amp to 40 Amp), but I can't seem to get the car to fire. I checked the fluids to ensure no major damage was done during overheating and the fluids don't appear to be mixed.
I grounded the spark plug and I am seeing spark. There is fuel in the bowls and is spraying when the throttle level/linkage is moved. The distributor is somewhat old and I have not pulled it to look for other obvious damage. I dropped in a new distributor cap and I have been slightly rotating during start-up. I am running an Ignitor along with a Flamethrower coil. I am not opposed to converting to an electronic ignition system.
Help needed;
Please let me know if you can help this weekend, during weeknights, or next weekend. Reply to this post or text/call my cell. I will do my best to be flexible to work around other's schedules. I do not have a heated garage, unfortunately.
Updating 22 Oct @ 7:50 PM to include my address..... 319 Vincent Ave. N. Minneapolis, MN 55405. Neighborhood is Bryn Mawr - between Penn and Highway 100 north of 394.
Thanks,
Andrew 612 226 6249
-- Edited by AK on Tuesday 22nd of October 2019 07:52:32 PM
You lost me with the thermostat change. I can't think of any way that would cause the engine to not start again. You say it ran to get home and then never did after the thermostat change ??? Any chance you knocked the pcv hose off the carb/intake nipple and it has a major vacuum leak ?
If you have spark and fuel, it should fire....maybe not run, if something is off, but it should fire while cranking over. If you have spark, the Igniter ignition and coil are working.
Were the spark plugs wet when you removed them ?
The Igniter is electronic, albeit a conversion, in a stock distributor.
I can't help this weekend, but if you don't get it running, I can see what the following weekend looks like.
No worries on the distributor - you mentioned it at Hastings and I was still working on replacing my daily driver and never got back to you. Larry L reached out and thinks he may have a spare distributor along with a compression gauge and timing gun.
For the thermostat change - I agree, I don't think that is related whatsoever to start-up, but I just wanted to point out the items I changed out. I was nervous that the thermostat may have went bad after overheating and I didn't want to put the engine at risk. That said, I dropped a 160F into it at first and then went back to the 180/190F (I can't recall exactly).... engine did not start in either case... and I had not yet replaced the fan relay before attempting to start with both thermostats.
PCV hose - Come to think of it, there was a vacuum leak leading up to the time this stopped running...... but I connected a few hoses and went away.... I thought it was related to the cowl induction line/valve. Definitely something to check out! Still learning all the time. Thanks!
I think that the timing may be off as from what I can tell as there is fuel, spark and, fingers-crossed, strong compression. Hard to think something like the timing chain is off already.
The plugs were not obviously wet, but in desperation I replaced them.
Thanks.
Thanks much, Larry.
Looking at the weather I threw out a start time of 11:30 AM or noon.
As always anyone can come or go as schedules allow... hopefully can be resolved within a few short hours.
If we end up meeting this weekend club members can call me for updates.... 612 226 6 249
For those of you that remember the June fun - I have a new battery along with a new daily driver if needed.
Hey Kevin,
Yes, possibly and thanks for the suggestion. Bob and I looked at some mock carb setups last weekend at the Classic Auto Repair event and he suggested looking into the carb further. My knowledge on carbs is not great, but we can start with the other items and work through the system.
Thanks again,
Andrew
612 226 624 9
If the distributor was locked down firmly after the June change, it should not have moved.
Having the timing off in June and, possibly, again now, leads me to wonder about the timing chain. I had the engine timed after the install and it shouldn't have been off in June either, unless it wasn't tight enough and rotated.
If you find the timing is way off again, I would suspect a chain issue. That could also be a symptom of the overheating...which you have been dealing with for 2 summers now.
It may be possible the roll pin in the distributor gear has sheared and allowed that gear to rotate on the shaft too, but I think that is a remote scenario, still wouldn't hurt to inspect that, if/when you pull the dizzy out.
I believe Andrew and I can handle it, so don't feel obligated to come, but more hands and/or eyes can never hurt.
Thanks for the suggestions, Mitch. From what I can tell the distributor didn't move much, if at all. We will start on the ignition side and work towards the timing chain. I noticed a small nut in the ignitor was loose, but not severely.
Andrew
I can make Sat. 11:30, I'll also try to put together parts/tools we may need.
Don't believe that the cam jumped time as the engine must have been rebuilt to get it to 468 cubs and there for the timing set would have been replaced. But, can't rule it out as stranger thing have happened.
Bob,
That will be great, thanks.
Another set of eyes will help.
I also invited my co-worker, Nate, and he might join us the learn and help, where possible.
Address is 319 Vincent Avenue North Minneapolis 55405.
Cell is 612 226 62 4 9.
Andrew can fill in more details of the engine, but as I remember him saying, it was rebuilt some time ago and then the cam went flat. Don't recall if he said that was replaced under a warranty, but if the build included the plastic covered cam gear that GM installed, it could be worn with the higher spring rates now. I WOULDN'T think the timing has jumped, but the symptoms seem to indicate that as a possibility.
Ya, any thing is possible, hopefully the builder wouldn't have used the plastic. Any chance the engine has a roller cam and they didn't install the correct dist. gear?
YES, I'm quite certain Andrew said he had a roller installed the second time to eliminate the need of using additives in the oil...
Well, we'll check timing first, see where it's at, if the timing is correct we still may want to inspect the gear, maybe Andrew know what was installed.
Yes indeed the cam went flat after about 15,000 miles after rebuilding in 2006 I didn't know zinc was needed for hydraulic lifters.
had a rebuilt in 2014 with roller cam no warranty it was at performance Concepts. gene pearson has a shop out of his house in Forest Lake - was recommended by my former mechanic growing up.
I can try to find the build sheet that should reference to cam part number.
I,m not sure if the distributor was replaced after that rebuild ... the gear might not be right perhaps that's a culprit.
Correct that. It appears the gear was replaced ...
Although this is the same engine that had the incorrect oil pan size 🐂🐂
cam part number is attached
i,ll to have to look it up shortly
-- Edited by AK on Friday 25th of October 2019 09:30:17 PM
This is very good news.
And the verdict is ????????
Many, many thanks to Larry and Bob for stopping over on Saturday to help!
With their tools we checked the timing. Although we had a tough time finding the last timing mark it appears the timing was still ok. However, when we checked the voltage across the system it was discovered that the coil was less than optimal. I previously mentioned there was spark at the plug, but Larry and Bob indicated the signal was weak.
Fortunately, I had my old coil available and we dropped that into place and with a little coercing (jumping, multiple batteries, etc) we were able to fire up the engine!
Bob also noticed that I had twos plugs reversed. I had an unexpected date night Saturday and drove the wife to St. Paul and back. I turned off/started the car several times Saturday night and took the daughter for a cruise yesterday. Fans are working well. Might be a few electrical gremlins lurking as my power door locks are not functioning.
Thanks for spending your valuable Saturday afternoon helping!
I have much less anxiety knowing there was no engine damage due to overheating. I’m looking forward to spring to continue working (electronic ignition, perhaps), but more importantly to drive this beast to some shows!
We found a bad coil
I thought AK would chime in with excitement, he must still be in la la land,driving the car or what ever.
After talking to AK about when the cam was replace and seeing the parts list we cam to the conclusion that the timing chain and sprockets were not the issue, next the dist gear, I looked on line and found that the correct gear was used.
https://www.onedirt.com/tech/engine/its-all-in-the-twist-taking-the-confusion-out-of-distributor-gear-compatibility/
So we checked spark found very week spark at the plug, not much better at the coil, so because coils are usually quite reliable we thought remove the dist with the electronic pickup and install a known good point dist, but after thinking about it and lunch we asked AK if he had a coil to try, just because it's easy, much better 3/4 to1" of spark. So after messing with the timing and low charge bat. the car started.
Thinking back to the June excitement, could this be the cause of the no start problem back then
We also looked at the spark at the end of the plug wire, there was much less than at the coil, as I recall 3/8 to1/2", so I wonder if the electronics are out of time with the rotor, or, firing the spark when the rotor is not lined up with the cap electrodes. Should be looked at, maybe there is a way to adjust the pickup? Or different dist.?
Just my opinion, but at this time and with this many issues with spark/timing, I would vote for a new distributor and matching coil.
His current Pertonix is an older unit and the coil was replaced with all the work 2 years ago, to match the Pertronix conversion in the distributor. May have been a defective coil right from the start. There are much better and more reliable Pertonix ignition systems available today, along with others.
And we still need to get 1 more floor pan patch installed and then the carpet...
-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Monday 28th of October 2019 02:37:06 PM
I fired it up again this evening and i will likely take it out this weekend for a last cruise.
I agree with Mitch most likely prepare for an upgrade.
Thanks again as it has been a blast to drive again!
Lots of thanks to the club for the recommendations, input and help!
It still would be sitting in the garage not running without your help.
I think I would remove all the pertronix stuff & replace with the Breakerless Ignition products Classic Auto Repair recommended at our last meeting/Tour.
Looking at that picture in Mitch's post - Hard to believe all the progress in such a short timeframe!
In my opinion why wouldn’t you put an hei in it? It fits without modification and will be trouble free. Parts for it can be bought at about any local auto store.
I,m running points, have had no problems, starts and run well, no misfires up high.
If/when I choose to upgrade I would opt for the HEI over a brakerless replacement.