So new bone-stock BMW M3 runs 11-second 1/4-mile times.
This concerns me for several reasons, but since we're here as a Chevelle club, I'll say why I posted it here.
Pretty much my entire adult life, I've enjoyed building older cars to go faster. One of my primary reasons for doing this was so that my 'old' car would be faster than the 'new' cars. In the '80s and '90s, this was a big deal to me. Having enough power to dust off new factory performance cars was more than a little satisfying to me.
But the 11s require a fair amount of investment to conquer reliably. That's some real power, and real bite- especially on street tires. I'm confident my old wagon had the power to do it (the 114 mph trap speed says so) but getting it down to the ground would have taken more tire or more efficient suspension- I had pretty good stuff, but still had to baby it off the line.
It's not the same for me anymore. I mean, I'm older and not trying to prove myself (or my car) like I used to. That's a big part of it, but it just chaps my hide a bit that the most powerful of muscle car era Chevelles cannot even come close to keeping up with bone stock BMWs anymore. Congrats to BMW on that, I guess, but being able to buy an 11-second ride is getting easier and easier all the time. The Hellcat Challenger is said to run 10s, but there won't be many of those around, I don't think. But I see M3s all the time.
I guess it'll take an aftermarket chassis and serious power to enjoy the styling of a vintage car with the performance to out-muscle late-model rides anymore.
Scott Parkhurst said
Oct 16, 2014
Oh, and here's an Audi going over 150 mph around a road course.
Pretty good right? There's one other thing, though.
Musclecars are basically going to be like running a Flathead anymore.
Cool, nostalgic, and everyone still loves to see them, but tough to make them compete with the new stuff for all out performance.
The unfortunate thing I see now is that any idiot can have huge HP now. It's no longer something reserved for real genuine car guys with grease under their nails... If your checkbook is big enough, you can have 1000+hp and never have to turn a wrench on it. Decades ago, if you bought a fast car, you had to wrench on it even if it was brand new. I see it as both good and bad, because I really want the trouble-free HP, but it's now more about money and less about the skill of building it yourself.
Innovation is now coming down from the manufacturers, not up from the hobbyists... who can afford to keep up?
Scott Parkhurst said
Oct 16, 2014
Exactly my point(s) Derek. And, with the technology right around the corner, you won't (have to) drive them anymore either.
The safety aspects will push these efforts forward.
I can honestly see 'racing' in the future without drivers- purely machine against machine. I'm intrigued by the idea of it now, but it will probably get boring quick. I don't know yet.
Crazy stuff!
bowtie said
Oct 16, 2014
I just started typing a intelligent and witty response with what was a valid point...... then deleted it when I saw a 96-ish Impala SS drive past, which made me delete it all and type this:
Classic styling will always hold a place in our hearts, that feel of brute torque will always surpass the rush of a turbo spooling up, the sound of a lopey idle with strong cylinder pressure, and the fact that no one will ever make new cars look like the old ones will always make ours special.
That being said, I'll still take an M3.
Derek69SS said
Oct 16, 2014
Scott Parkhurst wrote:
I can honestly see 'racing' in the future without drivers- purely machine against machine. I'm intrigued by the idea of it now, but it will probably get boring quick. I don't know yet. Crazy stuff!
I don't think that will be much of an issue, simply because it will take too much "fun" out of it for everyone from drivers to spectators.
I can see some of that same technology being used though as an "assist" to reduce some of the risk by drivers braking too late or turning too early, especially in amateur racing and track-day type events where skill levels and safety equipment are both lacking compared to professional racing. Kind of like ABS and traction control, the car just may take over and drive you out of a hairy situation when you run out of talent.
John D said
Oct 16, 2014
I was surfing around "Netflix", and found a movie about one of my driving heroes - Jackie Stewart. It's called "Weekend of a Champion", filmed in 1971 (Director Roman Polanski reedited his little-seen 1971 documentary about Grand Prix champion Jackie Stewart for this special re-release.)
It mostly revolves around the Monte Carlo Gran Prix, and Jackie's life/prep/influence on F1 during this era. The era of F1 where 3 out of 5 drivers would DIE during the season.
What I'm getting at is at the end of film, they cut-away to a "current" F1 car running the same circuit. (nothing against the current drivers, but...) It's about 2 minutes of a screaming 12k+RPM F1 car, with the driver flicking his fingers on the paddle shifters and STEERING. LED's and read-outs tell him mechanical status.
The movie shows Jackie having pedals & steering column adjusted to fit, complaining about the blisters on his hand from shifting gears (OMG-a real manual transmission that requires a clutch/rev matching/etc.), and when F1 was still very "raw" and deadly. (Jackie had his own personal surgeon "on-call"/at the events... because F1 at the time didn't deem it necessary. They had medical assistance available, and as JS mentions - they found a GYNECOLOGIST that wasn't doing anything the weekend of the GP!!)
You can't put the Genie back in the bottle.
Due to electronics, computer management, and metallurgy we're enjoying HP, drive-ability, & MPG levels that were only dreamed about even 25 years ago! The downside is that if a $.25 micro-chip, $2 sensor, or piece of WIRE fails the car is DEAD. Not so with the old stuff - the old stuff is still suck/squeeze/bang/blow - and with a little smarts you can get home without a stretcher.
IMO our hobby is going to come down to (as mentioned) the guys who have the smarts/ability or finances to take/make an engineered chassis & powertrain and bolt a classic shell on top. The days of Studellacs, OldsmoFords, etc. are gone - bolting the biggest offerings into old chassis' are gone. The hobby has matured into building the "total car"... goes like H*ll, stops, steers, and has all creature comforts. Unfortunately it takes the same $$$ to transform a 50yo shell into something you can buy off the lot for the same or less $$$.
Tony Hoffer said
Oct 17, 2014
Im building a Vega with a 200 Horse engine... This frightens and confuses people..
People will still want to have a muscle car that makes tons of tq and hp and handles really nice. Just that now, they wont be able to blow the doors off of the modern muscle cars like they used to. They still want that sound and the timeless look that old cars from any era bring and the aftermarket is making it more easier year after year to make hp and drivability without having to sacrifice one or the other.
There is a catch 22 here though. The old saying used to be... Reliability, Cheap, Performance. You can only pick 2 options. Now you can obtain all 3, (within reason as cheap is subjective). Unfortunately, that looses some of the hot rodder side of it IMO but at least you can have the performance now and spend less time on the side of the road so there is that. Some engines are pushing 500hp just from a cam swap and some work on the heads for flow and better flowing exhaust, for less then a grand. You used to have to do a bunch of the legwork to make sure your ordering the right parts, seems now, you just buy what the company tells you, this is what you need and done. I think the internet has really helped as well.
The other side of that is its still spendy to completely build a motor for the performance you want to get just like its always been, even crate motors arent cheap either, nice thing is you get a warranty. Bottom line it still costs money to build a performance driveline.
There is another side to this that is starting to get more popular now too. The muscle car crowd and the hot rodders are getting older now and with age comes the desire for more creature comforts, especially now with the OEM's having high hp options available right out of the showroom and many classic car owners also own one of these "modern" performance cars as well, be that an american muscle car or something imported. They want that collector car of theirs to have a comparible amount of performance (or more) and be able to turn on AC at the same time, perhaps they like the way modern seats feel and they want a nicer sounding stereo system as well. Which I can totally understand. Much like a pre-49 street rod.
People will still build vintage cars for performance but the days of doing so, just to compete with todays performance cars is over, but I dont think that will stop them from trying. There is always the bragging rights of, "I built this car to make that level of performance, you just walked into a dealership and bought it". IMO, there is something to be said about that.
stldrgn said
Oct 19, 2014
There is a reason people are doing ls swaps, this is one of them. You are forgetting how much most of the new cars weigh. Its still not that hard to beat the new cars, it just will be a few lengths instead of 10.
Scott Parkhurst said
Oct 20, 2014
The new Vettes will be really tough. They are great cars and common too. The Z/28s will also be fast- sure to become really common (again) in a couple years.
bowtie said
Oct 20, 2014
I want a Z/28, though the ZL1/1LE Camaro we had in would have been pretty cool.
Lost in the 60s said
Oct 20, 2014
Derek69SS wrote:
The unfortunate thing I see now is that any idiot can have huge HP now. It's no longer something reserved for real genuine car guys with grease under their nails... If your checkbook is big enough, you can have 1000+hp and never have to turn a wrench on it. Decades ago, if you bought a fast car, you had to wrench on it even if it was brand new. I see it as both good and bad, because I really want the trouble-free HP, but it's now more about money and less about the skill of building it yourself.
There were plenty of "idiots" in the sixties that bought an automatic trans L78, LS5, LS6 Chevelle, Hemi Cuda, Roadrunner, Superbee, etc. etc and wrapped them around telephone poles and barrel rolled them several times too. I know people think I'm prejudiced but no "muscle" car should have ever had an automatic trans installed....why ?? because having the reflexes and skill to master shifting a manual transmission left out a lot of the people who didn't know any better than to get in, put it in drive and mash the peddle to the floor. Once they got in trouble, they had no clue how to correct a power slide, drift, fishtail or when to lift that foot planted on the peddle off the floor. SMASH, there they are. Cornering and handling didn't exist. Remember, the muscle car era rode on BELTED tires about 1/4 to 1/3 the width of modern cars and had about 1/4 road gripping ability. A person could get in serious trouble with 400 hp back then as quickly as 650hp now with the equipment we had available.
Back in Black said
Oct 21, 2014
They don't have engines anymore in F1. They're called "power units".
-- Edited by Back in Black on Tuesday 21st of October 2014 01:00:12 AM
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-videos/latest/2015-bmw-m3-blasts-an-11-second-quarter-mile-bone-stock?src=soc_fcbks
So new bone-stock BMW M3 runs 11-second 1/4-mile times.
This concerns me for several reasons, but since we're here as a Chevelle club, I'll say why I posted it here.
Pretty much my entire adult life, I've enjoyed building older cars to go faster. One of my primary reasons for doing this was so that my 'old' car would be faster than the 'new' cars. In the '80s and '90s, this was a big deal to me. Having enough power to dust off new factory performance cars was more than a little satisfying to me.
But the 11s require a fair amount of investment to conquer reliably. That's some real power, and real bite- especially on street tires. I'm confident my old wagon had the power to do it (the 114 mph trap speed says so) but getting it down to the ground would have taken more tire or more efficient suspension- I had pretty good stuff, but still had to baby it off the line.
It's not the same for me anymore. I mean, I'm older and not trying to prove myself (or my car) like I used to. That's a big part of it, but it just chaps my hide a bit that the most powerful of muscle car era Chevelles cannot even come close to keeping up with bone stock BMWs anymore. Congrats to BMW on that, I guess, but being able to buy an 11-second ride is getting easier and easier all the time. The Hellcat Challenger is said to run 10s, but there won't be many of those around, I don't think. But I see M3s all the time.
I guess it'll take an aftermarket chassis and serious power to enjoy the styling of a vintage car with the performance to out-muscle late-model rides anymore.
Pretty good right? There's one other thing, though.
www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/driverless-audi-rs7-will-pilot-itself-around-hockenheim-on-sunday
No driver.
Cool, nostalgic, and everyone still loves to see them, but tough to make them compete with the new stuff for all out performance.
The unfortunate thing I see now is that any idiot can have huge HP now. It's no longer something reserved for real genuine car guys with grease under their nails... If your checkbook is big enough, you can have 1000+hp and never have to turn a wrench on it. Decades ago, if you bought a fast car, you had to wrench on it even if it was brand new. I see it as both good and bad, because I really want the trouble-free HP, but it's now more about money and less about the skill of building it yourself.
Innovation is now coming down from the manufacturers, not up from the hobbyists... who can afford to keep up?
The safety aspects will push these efforts forward.
I can honestly see 'racing' in the future without drivers- purely machine against machine. I'm intrigued by the idea of it now, but it will probably get boring quick. I don't know yet.
Crazy stuff!
Classic styling will always hold a place in our hearts, that feel of brute torque will always surpass the rush of a turbo spooling up, the sound of a lopey idle with strong cylinder pressure, and the fact that no one will ever make new cars look like the old ones will always make ours special.
That being said, I'll still take an M3.
I don't think that will be much of an issue, simply because it will take too much "fun" out of it for everyone from drivers to spectators.
I can see some of that same technology being used though as an "assist" to reduce some of the risk by drivers braking too late or turning too early, especially in amateur racing and track-day type events where skill levels and safety equipment are both lacking compared to professional racing. Kind of like ABS and traction control, the car just may take over and drive you out of a hairy situation when you run out of talent.
It mostly revolves around the Monte Carlo Gran Prix, and Jackie's life/prep/influence on F1 during this era. The era of F1 where 3 out of 5 drivers would DIE during the season.
What I'm getting at is at the end of film, they cut-away to a "current" F1 car running the same circuit. (nothing against the current drivers, but...) It's about 2 minutes of a screaming 12k+RPM F1 car, with the driver flicking his fingers on the paddle shifters and STEERING. LED's and read-outs tell him mechanical status.
The movie shows Jackie having pedals & steering column adjusted to fit, complaining about the blisters on his hand from shifting gears (OMG-a real manual transmission that requires a clutch/rev matching/etc.), and when F1 was still very "raw" and deadly. (Jackie had his own personal surgeon "on-call"/at the events... because F1 at the time didn't deem it necessary. They had medical assistance available, and as JS mentions - they found a GYNECOLOGIST that wasn't doing anything the weekend of the GP!!)
You can't put the Genie back in the bottle.
Due to electronics, computer management, and metallurgy we're enjoying HP, drive-ability, & MPG levels that were only dreamed about even 25 years ago! The downside is that if a $.25 micro-chip, $2 sensor, or piece of WIRE fails the car is DEAD. Not so with the old stuff - the old stuff is still suck/squeeze/bang/blow - and with a little smarts you can get home without a stretcher.
IMO our hobby is going to come down to (as mentioned) the guys who have the smarts/ability or finances to take/make an engineered chassis & powertrain and bolt a classic shell on top. The days of Studellacs, OldsmoFords, etc. are gone - bolting the biggest offerings into old chassis' are gone. The hobby has matured into building the "total car"... goes like H*ll, stops, steers, and has all creature comforts. Unfortunately it takes the same $$$ to transform a 50yo shell into something you can buy off the lot for the same or less $$$.
People will still want to have a muscle car that makes tons of tq and hp and handles really nice. Just that now, they wont be able to blow the doors off of the modern muscle cars like they used to. They still want that sound and the timeless look that old cars from any era bring and the aftermarket is making it more easier year after year to make hp and drivability without having to sacrifice one or the other.
There is a catch 22 here though. The old saying used to be... Reliability, Cheap, Performance. You can only pick 2 options. Now you can obtain all 3, (within reason as cheap is subjective). Unfortunately, that looses some of the hot rodder side of it IMO but at least you can have the performance now and spend less time on the side of the road so there is that. Some engines are pushing 500hp just from a cam swap and some work on the heads for flow and better flowing exhaust, for less then a grand. You used to have to do a bunch of the legwork to make sure your ordering the right parts, seems now, you just buy what the company tells you, this is what you need and done. I think the internet has really helped as well.
The other side of that is its still spendy to completely build a motor for the performance you want to get just like its always been, even crate motors arent cheap either, nice thing is you get a warranty. Bottom line it still costs money to build a performance driveline.
There is another side to this that is starting to get more popular now too. The muscle car crowd and the hot rodders are getting older now and with age comes the desire for more creature comforts, especially now with the OEM's having high hp options available right out of the showroom and many classic car owners also own one of these "modern" performance cars as well, be that an american muscle car or something imported. They want that collector car of theirs to have a comparible amount of performance (or more) and be able to turn on AC at the same time, perhaps they like the way modern seats feel and they want a nicer sounding stereo system as well. Which I can totally understand. Much like a pre-49 street rod.
People will still build vintage cars for performance but the days of doing so, just to compete with todays performance cars is over, but I dont think that will stop them from trying. There is always the bragging rights of, "I built this car to make that level of performance, you just walked into a dealership and bought it". IMO, there is something to be said about that.
There were plenty of "idiots" in the sixties that bought an automatic trans L78, LS5, LS6 Chevelle, Hemi Cuda, Roadrunner, Superbee, etc. etc and wrapped them around telephone poles and barrel rolled them several times too. I know people think I'm prejudiced but no "muscle" car should have ever had an automatic trans installed....why ?? because having the reflexes and skill to master shifting a manual transmission left out a lot of the people who didn't know any better than to get in, put it in drive and mash the peddle to the floor. Once they got in trouble, they had no clue how to correct a power slide, drift, fishtail or when to lift that foot planted on the peddle off the floor. SMASH, there they are. Cornering and handling didn't exist. Remember, the muscle car era rode on BELTED tires about 1/4 to 1/3 the width of modern cars and had about 1/4 road gripping ability. A person could get in serious trouble with 400 hp back then as quickly as 650hp now with the equipment we had available.
They don't have engines anymore in F1. They're called "power units".
-- Edited by Back in Black on Tuesday 21st of October 2014 01:00:12 AM