Engine swap on '66 (or, out with the 283 and in with the 327)
Grajmahal said
Jul 30, 2014
Last weekend I finally got around to starting a project that I have been working up to for some time - the engine and transmission swap in my 66 malibu ragtop "Loosie". (she got that name because her brakes are loosie, her steering is loosie, doors are loosie, etc. etc.) I managed to get the old smoke machine and three-speed out on Saturday, and a Craigslist ad made short work of the both of them. I think the Saginaw was still in pretty decent shape, and I tried to be as clear about the condition of the engine as possible (it was drinking a quart of cheap oil every hundred miles and still had the factory spark plugs.) Some guy from Iowa made off with the both of them for $125 plus some beer. (By that I mean HE paid ME, which may come as a surprise) Apparently they have lower standards down there?
Anyway, I started to put the engine/trans together and found out that I had ordered the wrong clutch assembly (online) for my flywheel. Off to NAPA for a whole new setup, and $100+ later I am back in business. I had also planned to do the power steering swap while the engine was out, so I pulled out the new steering box that I had also ordered online. You guessed it: wrong. Unfortunately, I ordered it last year in anticipation of this project, so I am stuck with the 99 Jeep Grand Cherokee power steering box that they shipped instead of the 96 that I ordered. Nothing that Autozone and $134 can't remedy.
You may already be calling me Johnny Wrongpart, but that isn't all:
The new radiator didn't fit - direct swap my ass. I had to take the factory shroud off just to make enough room. Now the factory hoses don't reach.
The new proportioning valve sat very neatly right where the bellcrank goes for the clutch. I fabbed up a small bracket to relocate it an inch forward, but it ain't pretty.
The water pump bumped into the timing cover. Double gaskets gave me a teeny clearance, but: haven't people been making aftermarket parts for these engines for sixty years now? You'd think that they would know where the ass was.
The really cool, shiny power steering pump bracket assembly from Summit doesn't fit short water pumps. This would be very useful information were it to be supplied to you BEFORE you order the item.
The "direct replacement" battery cable was too short. I think they must have been measuring in those little Chinese feet.
Ugh.
I haven't gotten it to the stage where I can fire the engine and see if I did everything right or if I have just built a boat anchor. This is my first engine in 30+ years, and almost everything came from the internet - including the knowhow. I built the engine and did a complete overhaul on the Muncie and the Hurst shifter, having never even seen one before. Expect me to come to the next club event in reverse and on fire. And without power steering.
I may or may not have attached a photo for your amusement (The 11-year-old isn't here to walk me through it). If I did: that is the old distributor, now converted to a pre-oiler by grinding down the drive gear and busting off the advance bar. The DeWalt is the best thing I can think of to power it, and I ran it for about 10 minutes this morning - until most of the pushrods were spitting oil. The vintage Edelbrock valve covers are from Craigslist, ditto the intake. Notice the fat aluminum radiator: that thing could cool a P-51. It looks more like a toaster than an auto part.
The good news is that the photo appears above. The bad news is that some of you have desktop computers that are not easily rotated. Sorry.
The brake setup is 1967 booster and MC, with home-bent and flared lines down to the valve. I couldn't figure out how to get a perfect coil in the lines at the master cylinder, and finally resigned myself to rookie-looking bends. If anyone has a trick to share, I might take another shot.
John
dashboard said
Jul 31, 2014
Looks great, sounds like your sprits are high and you still have a wonderful since of humor. Your post started my morning off with a good laugh and brought back many memories we all share of ill-fitting parts. When I did the Buick I sent back a lot of parts; Amazon makes it pretty easy.
When the fire is out, the car moves under its own power and your sitting at the first car show you will soon forget the one step forward two steps back and banging your head against the garage floor saga.
I’ve ground a fair amount of steel off water pumps to make them fit, might work for you also. I've used a baseball bat or piece of pipe to wrap lines around.
Very nice car buy the way
Lost in the 60s said
Jul 31, 2014
That's a drum brake master....are the front brakes still drum ?
I have the same style priming pump from the 70's. Works very well...
Different angle of the madness.
Grajmahal said
Jul 31, 2014
I ordered a rear drum/front disc master from the friendly guys at NAPA, and that's what I got. I figured the '67 parts would be a good swap for hood clearance. The fronts are new discs, so I am counting on that being a disc master. Although, if I am going to keep the story going, it kind of has to be a drum/drum, doesn't it?
Thanks for fixing my photo.
John
bowtie said
Jul 31, 2014
I believe I have a spare disc/drum master.
SShink said
Jul 31, 2014
Hang in there John, now it's all the nit picky/fabrication required/I did it myself stuff to get it going, which you will overcome! If you hadn't pointed out the spiral bends on the master cylinder, I wouldn't have noticed at all. I'm not a big '66/67 guy, so they would probably notice, but at some point a guy has to not worry about others and just get that puppy on the road and drive it!
Keep up the good work!
Lost in the 60s said
Jul 31, 2014
I have a correct 67' disc/drum master from Inline Tube. They also used the hold off valve as seen in the pics. This is with an 11" booster. I've since swapped in a correct 9" booster. I too had to move the distribution block to the top of the frame, right behind the z-bar for header clearance. I retained the original distribution block, that is why the hold off valve is needed. If you went to an aftermarket distribution block, you shouldn't need the hold off.
A drum master will hold too much residual pressure on the calipers and overheat the pads/discs.
Grajmahal said
Aug 1, 2014
Nice looking car Mitch! I am looking at the photos, and I can't tell the difference between the master cylinders. I opted for a modern-style integrated proportioning valve, so there wasn't a need for the hold-off valve under the master - is that what you are noticing? Those "hand-bent" lines go right down to the front and the rear inlets on the PV. Like I say, when I ordered the master, I was told that it was a disc/drum master.
John
Lost in the 60s said
Aug 1, 2014
Yeah, you can't see the top directly but the front chamber for the discs is larger than the rear. I can't see that detail on yours either, so it may be the same. Hopefully, the residuals are correct in yours for the disc and drum applications. Those "hand bent" coils are fine. Most people don't bother trying to reproduce the coil by hand at all....
Grajmahal said
Aug 1, 2014
So I went out to the garage and took a rubbing of the casting number (It's under the cylinder so I can't get to it to read it, but greazy hands on a piece of printer paper did the trick) : 5468115. According to the web, this is a pretty standard casting that was used for a whole bunch of years for disc/drum cars, into the mid '70s. I think the NAPA guys probably have a crossover guide that tells them that it will work in a '67 system, even though it is not 'correct' for the car. As long as she stops on less than a dollar, I'll be happy.
JOhn
67ss said
Aug 1, 2014
I have seen the big/little reservoir not always be true for disc/drum setup. In fact the master on my camaro has the same size front and back and it works with my disc/drum setup with no problems. Big test will be the first test drive and how the pedal feels and how it stops.
Grajmahal said
Aug 18, 2014
Thanks for all the help, guys. She is up and running, and I am ironing out some of the details. Right now, the rear brakes aren't doing anything. I replaced the shoes, adjusted, and bled, so I am kind of guessing at this point that the wheel cylinders were shot on the car. I noticed when I jacked the thing up and spun a wheel around that the opposite wheel doesn't move at all. I was expecting it to spin in the opposite direction (or maybe get lucky and have a posi ) - but I have no idea what it means if the other wheel does nothing. Does that mean that I just have a worn out diff?
John
Lost in the 60s said
Aug 18, 2014
Grajmahal wrote:
Thanks for all the help, guys. She is up and running, and I am ironing out some of the details. Right now, the rear brakes aren't doing anything. I replaced the shoes, adjusted, and bled, so I am kind of guessing at this point that the wheel cylinders were shot on the car. I noticed when I jacked the thing up and spun a wheel around that the opposite wheel doesn't move at all. I was expecting it to spin in the opposite direction (or maybe get lucky and have a posi ) - but I have no idea what it means if the other wheel does nothing. Does that mean that I just have a worn out diff?
John
No, just means the spider gears were spinning and not turning the other axle gear.
If the rear wheel cylinders are seized, it could prevent the brakes from working. What happens that you don't think they are doing anything ?
Grajmahal said
Aug 18, 2014
Well, I have had a lot of difficulty getting the rear brakes to bleed adequately after the front disc conversion. I installed a new line from the proportioning valve to the rubber line, and thought I had all of the air out of it. I bled the rears for what seemed like forever (I went through two volunteers on the pedal side if that is any indication) and finally was getting fluid consistently out of the bleeders and good feel at the pedal. However, with the back of the car jacked up, I could tell that the wheels still spin freely when the brake pedal is pressed. I figured that the cylinders must not be doing their job, so I ran out to O'Rielley tonight and got a new pair. Now it seems like no amount of bleeding will get even a little fluid out. I'd keep going, but it isn't even a sputter or a whoosh - just silence when I open the bleeder. I gave it about thirty tries on each side. Do I just need to keep bleeding these things for the rest of my life, or is there something else that needs doing that I am overlooking?
Thanks
John
Lost in the 60s said
Aug 19, 2014
Is the flex hose new too ?? If it is old, it can be swollen or cracked internally and block the flow.
I always leave the right rear bleeder open a couple turns and walk away for a while and let it bleed by gravity until it flows. Then do the left. Once I have fluid from both I go back to the right side and have a helper push the pedal down once while the bleeder is open, close the bleeder and do that a few times before going to the 3-4 pump method.
67ss said
Aug 19, 2014
Sounds like the proportioning valve may have tripped itself and is not coming back. Hook a test light to B+ and touch the lead on the inside of the prop valve switch and see if the test light lights up. If it does the valve is tripped. You can unscrew the switch and use a screw driver to push the valve back to center in a worst case senerio and try to bleed it again.
Lost in the 60s said
Aug 19, 2014
67ss wrote:
Sounds like the proportioning valve may have tripped itself and is not coming back. Hook a test light to B+ and touch the lead on the inside of the prop valve switch and see if the test light lights up. If it does the valve is tripped. You can unscrew the switch and use a screw driver to push the valve back to center in a worst case scenario and try to bleed it again.
Doh, forgot about the prop valve. That is why I let a dry line gravity feed to avoid tripping the valve. I've been doing that so long I couldn't remember why I let them run first...
Grajmahal said
Aug 19, 2014
Thanks for the suggestions guys. And the winner is: Mitch, with the flex hose. I cracked the fitting at the rear end of the hard line, and plenty of fluid came out. I pulled the flex line and it was so obstructed that I couldn't even blow any air through it. I am amazed that something like this could fail such that a couple hundred PSI of fluid couldn't open it, but that was indeed the case. A new line in, a gravity bleed, and I am back in business. I wondered why the rear shoes and drums looked to be in such good condition; I suspect that they have never so much as touched since the last brake job. I now have new shoes and cylinders, so I should be set for a while.
Here's the creepy part: I have now learned that I drove from LA to Minneapolis, made numerous trips to the lake and all over town last fall and this summer, all on nothing but two front drum brakes. God must smile on the stupid.
I finally got the car out this evening for a trip around the block and down the freeway. Pedal feel is okay, though I suspect that a little more bleeding is in order. The power steering is fantastic - if you haven't done the Grand Cherokee swap, I recommend it. My disc kit lowered the car 2" and I installed a big front sway bar - neither of which seems to have had much effect on the car's handling. I go in tomorrow for an exhaust, so right now the open pipes make assessing anything else in the car almost impossible. The amazing part: an engine and transmission that a rookie put together in his garage over the winter actually function! I know you guys probably have that feeling all the time, but for me, it is still a little frightening and thrilling. The engine fires right up on the first click, the Muncie shifts like a dream, the car turns and stops better than when it was new - is it normal to be waiting for the catastrophe?
Thanks again for all the help.
John
Lost in the 60s said
Aug 19, 2014
Congrats on getting it sorted out...
Once those hoses collapse, the pressure only seems to plug it tighter and you're talking more like 3 THOUSAND pounds of fluid pressure.
You'll be waiting for the other shoe to drop for a while. It takes some time to get comfortable with a lot of changes at the same time.
Last weekend I finally got around to starting a project that I have been working up to for some time - the engine and transmission swap in my 66 malibu ragtop "Loosie". (she got that name because her brakes are loosie, her steering is loosie, doors are loosie, etc. etc.) I managed to get the old smoke machine and three-speed out on Saturday, and a Craigslist ad made short work of the both of them. I think the Saginaw was still in pretty decent shape, and I tried to be as clear about the condition of the engine as possible (it was drinking a quart of cheap oil every hundred miles and still had the factory spark plugs.) Some guy from Iowa made off with the both of them for $125 plus some beer. (By that I mean HE paid ME, which may come as a surprise) Apparently they have lower standards down there?
Anyway, I started to put the engine/trans together and found out that I had ordered the wrong clutch assembly (online) for my flywheel. Off to NAPA for a whole new setup, and $100+ later I am back in business. I had also planned to do the power steering swap while the engine was out, so I pulled out the new steering box that I had also ordered online. You guessed it: wrong. Unfortunately, I ordered it last year in anticipation of this project, so I am stuck with the 99 Jeep Grand Cherokee power steering box that they shipped instead of the 96 that I ordered. Nothing that Autozone and $134 can't remedy.
You may already be calling me Johnny Wrongpart, but that isn't all:
The new radiator didn't fit - direct swap my ass. I had to take the factory shroud off just to make enough room. Now the factory hoses don't reach.
The new proportioning valve sat very neatly right where the bellcrank goes for the clutch. I fabbed up a small bracket to relocate it an inch forward, but it ain't pretty.
The water pump bumped into the timing cover. Double gaskets gave me a teeny clearance, but: haven't people been making aftermarket parts for these engines for sixty years now? You'd think that they would know where the ass was.
The really cool, shiny power steering pump bracket assembly from Summit doesn't fit short water pumps. This would be very useful information were it to be supplied to you BEFORE you order the item.
The "direct replacement" battery cable was too short. I think they must have been measuring in those little Chinese feet.
Ugh.
I haven't gotten it to the stage where I can fire the engine and see if I did everything right or if I have just built a boat anchor. This is my first engine in 30+ years, and almost everything came from the internet - including the knowhow. I built the engine and did a complete overhaul on the Muncie and the Hurst shifter, having never even seen one before. Expect me to come to the next club event in reverse and on fire. And without power steering.
I may or may not have attached a photo for your amusement (The 11-year-old isn't here to walk me through it). If I did: that is the old distributor, now converted to a pre-oiler by grinding down the drive gear and busting off the advance bar. The DeWalt is the best thing I can think of to power it, and I ran it for about 10 minutes this morning - until most of the pushrods were spitting oil. The vintage Edelbrock valve covers are from Craigslist, ditto the intake. Notice the fat aluminum radiator: that thing could cool a P-51. It looks more like a toaster than an auto part.
More to follow. Comments invited.
John
The brake setup is 1967 booster and MC, with home-bent and flared lines down to the valve. I couldn't figure out how to get a perfect coil in the lines at the master cylinder, and finally resigned myself to rookie-looking bends. If anyone has a trick to share, I might take another shot.
John
When the fire is out, the car moves under its own power and your sitting at the first car show you will soon forget the one step forward two steps back and banging your head against the garage floor saga.
I’ve ground a fair amount of steel off water pumps to make them fit, might work for you also. I've used a baseball bat or piece of pipe to wrap lines around.
Very nice car buy the way
That's a drum brake master....are the front brakes still drum ?
I have the same style priming pump from the 70's. Works very well...
Different angle of the madness.
Thanks for fixing my photo.
John
Hang in there John, now it's all the nit picky/fabrication required/I did it myself stuff to get it going, which you will overcome! If you hadn't pointed out the spiral bends on the master cylinder, I wouldn't have noticed at all. I'm not a big '66/67 guy, so they would probably notice, but at some point a guy has to not worry about others and just get that puppy on the road and drive it!
Keep up the good work!
I have a correct 67' disc/drum master from Inline Tube. They also used the hold off valve as seen in the pics. This is with an 11" booster. I've since swapped in a correct 9" booster. I too had to move the distribution block to the top of the frame, right behind the z-bar for header clearance. I retained the original distribution block, that is why the hold off valve is needed. If you went to an aftermarket distribution block, you shouldn't need the hold off.
A drum master will hold too much residual pressure on the calipers and overheat the pads/discs.
John
Yeah, you can't see the top directly but the front chamber for the discs is larger than the rear. I can't see that detail on yours either, so it may be the same. Hopefully, the residuals are correct in yours for the disc and drum applications.
Those "hand bent" coils are fine. Most people don't bother trying to reproduce the coil by hand at all....
So I went out to the garage and took a rubbing of the casting number (It's under the cylinder so I can't get to it to read it, but greazy hands on a piece of printer paper did the trick) : 5468115. According to the web, this is a pretty standard casting that was used for a whole bunch of years for disc/drum cars, into the mid '70s. I think the NAPA guys probably have a crossover guide that tells them that it will work in a '67 system, even though it is not 'correct' for the car. As long as she stops on less than a dollar, I'll be happy.
JOhn
I have seen the big/little reservoir not always be true for disc/drum setup. In fact the master on my camaro has the same size front and back and it works with my disc/drum setup with no problems. Big test will be the first test drive and how the pedal feels and how it stops.
John
No, just means the spider gears were spinning and not turning the other axle gear.
If the rear wheel cylinders are seized, it could prevent the brakes from working. What happens that you don't think they are doing anything ?
Thanks
John
Is the flex hose new too ?? If it is old, it can be swollen or cracked internally and block the flow.
I always leave the right rear bleeder open a couple turns and walk away for a while and let it bleed by gravity until it flows. Then do the left. Once I have fluid from both I go back to the right side and have a helper push the pedal down once while the bleeder is open, close the bleeder and do that a few times before going to the 3-4 pump method.
Sounds like the proportioning valve may have tripped itself and is not coming back. Hook a test light to B+ and touch the lead on the inside of the prop valve switch and see if the test light lights up. If it does the valve is tripped. You can unscrew the switch and use a screw driver to push the valve back to center in a worst case senerio and try to bleed it again.
Doh, forgot about the prop valve. That is why I let a dry line gravity feed to avoid tripping the valve. I've been doing that so long I couldn't remember why I let them run first...
Here's the creepy part: I have now learned that I drove from LA to Minneapolis, made numerous trips to the lake and all over town last fall and this summer, all on nothing but two front drum brakes. God must smile on the stupid.
I finally got the car out this evening for a trip around the block and down the freeway. Pedal feel is okay, though I suspect that a little more bleeding is in order. The power steering is fantastic - if you haven't done the Grand Cherokee swap, I recommend it. My disc kit lowered the car 2" and I installed a big front sway bar - neither of which seems to have had much effect on the car's handling. I go in tomorrow for an exhaust, so right now the open pipes make assessing anything else in the car almost impossible. The amazing part: an engine and transmission that a rookie put together in his garage over the winter actually function! I know you guys probably have that feeling all the time, but for me, it is still a little frightening and thrilling. The engine fires right up on the first click, the Muncie shifts like a dream, the car turns and stops better than when it was new - is it normal to be waiting for the catastrophe?
Thanks again for all the help.
John
Congrats on getting it sorted out...
Once those hoses collapse, the pressure only seems to plug it tighter and you're talking more like 3 THOUSAND pounds of fluid pressure.
You'll be waiting for the other shoe to drop for a while. It takes some time to get comfortable with a lot of changes at the same time.