I've been toying with the idea of doing something different with my suspension and brakes but I'd have to sell all my current stuff first. It would be a simple bolt on setup. All the R&D is done. Wheels and tires would go as well. If anyone is interested, you can check out the details here:
-- Edited by Back in Black on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 11:45:56 AM
bowtie said
Jul 23, 2012
I have decided that I want my car to handle better. Of course, I need to get it tuned (gotta book a date with Jim, but it's going to happen soon), and then edumacate myself in what I'm going to need.
Please point me towards some good references. I'm assuming the pro-touring section of TC, and Lateral-G would be good places, though I haven't checked them out. Also, what kinds of parts should I be looking at?
This will not be a big-dollar project. honestly, like the rest of my car's build, it will be as "on the cheap" as I can, though cost isn't the decision maker. It's also not going to be a winter project, it will be a year or more to save up and find stuff (unless a fairy car-father wants to sponsor me).
Currently, I have factory disc brakes, Helwig sway bars, and rear Southside machine bars. I would assume I'm looking at better brakes, shocks, springs, maybe a steering box change, and tires once I can actually use them. I don't really want to whoe pro-touring look so much as the feel. I'm most likely not going to be competitive for things like RSE based on my HP and budget.
I'll open this to everyone, but I know some are more well versend than others.
Derek69SS said
Jul 23, 2012
You basically described John D's setup as your goal...
Mark Savitske is the guy to talk to at www.scandc.com
SteveS said
Jul 23, 2012
I'm interested in this as well Bryan, I've love to upgrade suspension & tires to be able to run some local autocross events just for fun. But, it will take some time before my car budget has recouped from the engine swap to do anything.
67ss said
Jul 23, 2012
I had fun autocrossing on sunday at the show. Wish it would not have been such a long wait I would like to have tried a few more runs.
I bought my stuff about 2-1/2 years ago using stage II plus components. At that time the package wasn't nearly as complete as it is now. Mark & I really just put a package together incorporating the parts I already had:
The kit/parts I ordered from SC&C was basically: - Their adjustable upper arms - The "tall" ball joints - The springs they recommended (and supplied)
To work it backwards, I "deleted" from the current package: - No sway bars (already had 1-1/8 front & OEM rear. - No rear arms (had boxed lowers, and '64 ((semi-adjustable)) uppers installed) with polygraphite bushings. - No shocks (already had new "non-specialty" HD/OEM replacements) - couldn't afford "fancy" ones.
I'm using the stock front lower arms (upgraded with polygraphite bushings), tires are 255/40/17's (Blizzak's... yeah, snow tires, but they came with the wheels), and a fast-ratio GM steering box (from a Trans Am/WS-6 car).
As y'all know, I'm a tight SOB with a buck... I'll make/build it (if I can) before I'll buy it, employ used or OEM when possible, or compromise until funds allow. I have a very limited budget for "toys".
I am VERY pleased with the performance and quality of the parts, and the handling/ride - and remember that my setup is a "hodgepodge" of existing parts mated to only the items necessary to get decent alignment specs & geometry. I am totally confident that if someone purchased their entire kit (as spec'd) it would even be more awesome.
I can equate the ride & handling to a late-model Z28,T/A... firm but not harsh. Very little body roll, and all of the GM "wallow" that we're used to is GONE.
Tim H said
Jul 24, 2012
Derek69SS wrote:
Good fresh fluid is even more important when you get to that point.
I'm not very knowledgable on the suspension stuff but I agree on the brake fluid. We change it multiple times through a race season on our Hobby Stock racecar. It makes a difference.
-- Edited by Tim H on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 08:24:25 PM
Derek69SS said
Jul 25, 2012
What are you going to run for tires & wheels? That's the most important part of the package, the rest is just doing what it needs to do to keep the tires happy and touching the pavement...
If you want to stay with 15s, honestly there's not much point in doing anything more than springs and swaybars... If you want to go up to 17s or 18s, I'd recommend also getting 9" or wider wheels, so you can get some decent rubber on it. All that geometry improving and high-end gadgetry has only one purpose, to keep the maximum amount of rubber in contact with the road. You can spend thousands on getting the "perfect" geometry, but if someone spent only a few hundred to get 90% as good, but has 2" more rubber at each corner, he'll beat you, easily.
Next decision is brakes... anything more than "stock" disc/drum setup is not really necessary until you get on a course bigger than any autocross I've ever been on. Slowing several times from ~50mph in a 50-70sec course is no problem when you have cool-down time between runs. Slowing a second time after standing on them at 140 is a whole different story. Brakes = weight. Smaller is faster, until you overheat them... and then you crash. Good rotors and high-performance pads will work with the heat better than the cheap stuff. Good fresh fluid is even more important when you get to that point. If you decide bigger brakes are necessary, the C5/C6 stuff is really affordable, and makes the AFX spindle not seem so expensive... They can make wheel fitment a little tricky though, as the caliper sticks out past the hub flange.
After that, the rest is just the stuff that connects the pieces together, and tunes the handling... what will work best for you will vary based on what you decide for the above.
My biggest suggestion is to figure out the whole package, then buy what you really want the first time, even if it's only a small part of the overall setup... and don't change the plan half way through, unless it's something that won't make the parts you already bought obsolete.
Chris R said
Jul 25, 2012
I think Scott P has 17x8 wheels. I dont know what size brakes he has though.
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 25, 2012
Back in Black wrote:
I've been toying with the idea of doing something different with my suspension and brakes but I'd have to sell all my current stuff first. It would be a simple bolt on setup. All the R&D is done. Wheels and tires would go as well. If anyone is interested, you can check out the details here:
What QA1 shocks do you have ? are they the R series ?
-- Edited by Back in Black on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 11:45:56 AM
bowtie said
Jul 25, 2012
Thanks for all the input. Looks like I will spend a while educating myself on stuff, then decide if it would be worth it or not. In the end, it's still just a street car that would see little track time. I have Helwig front and rear sway bars, original front springs, freebie leftover rear springs from Derek which I assume are stockers.
Derek-you're saying wider rims, what size tires would be in the realm of your suggestion? I assume the 15" stopping point is because of the tall sidewalls which will negate any quickness you gain?
Either way, I think I'm going to upgrade my brakes as the next significant project. I don't like them, and I'm thinking I want to add rear disc ones while I'm at it. I swapped in a factory setup with rotors/pads from Brake and Equipment way back when.
Derek69SS said
Jul 25, 2012
Bryan, the problem with 15s is that you can't get performance tires for them, except in really small sizes (to fit Miatas and Civics)
My tire suggestion would be the biggest "Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec" that you can get, which is 265/40 in 17" or 275/40 in 18"... They're the only tire I would buy right now, but they're coming out with the Z2 next year, so you might want to wait (either for more possible sizes, or closeout deals on the Z1)
The SCCA just changed their rules for next year in the "Road Tire" classes, so hopefully that may create a market for bigger sizes from Dunlop.
For the 200tw requirement at all the musclecar events, I'd honestly rather have 275mm Dunlops than 315mm Nittos or BFGs... If they don't change the TW rating on the Z2 (which is supposed to be faster yet!), these might be my little secret for next year's events. ;)
SteveS said
Jul 25, 2012
Derek- How fast would something like those Dunlops wear? I know there is a lot of variables to wear, but if you did a handful of events a year, plus kept them on for normal driving, could you expect a couple of years out of them?
Derek69SS said
Jul 25, 2012
I have 150+ autocross runs on mine and a few thousand street miles, and expect to get another year out of them (they need to be flipped though to put the worn outside edge on the inside)
They do get hard though if they're allowed to freeze, so storage can be an issue.
Back in Black said
Jul 25, 2012
Bowtieman427 wrote:
Back in Black wrote:
I've been toying with the idea of doing something different with my suspension and brakes but I'd have to sell all my current stuff first. It would be a simple bolt on setup. All the R&D is done. Wheels and tires would go as well. If anyone is interested, you can check out the details here:
What QA1 shocks do you have ? are they the R series ?
-- Edited by Back in Black on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 11:45:56 AM
Double adjustable coil over shocks in the front and Stocker Star 12-way adjustable shocks in the rear. Not R series.
Scott Parkhurst said
Jul 26, 2012
My wheels are all 17x8 - I just run different size tires front and rear. I have plenty of clearance for wider wheels but I got a deal on these and I like them. So know you could go bigger easily...but you'll want at least a 17 to get a good sized brake in there, and you always want a bigger tire in back to look right. I have a slew of coils you can try, and I have a couple in mind that should be real close to what you need.
Lost in the 60s said
Jul 27, 2012
If you still have rubber bushings in the front arms, I would replace them first with Pro-Thane. The Pro-Thane poly has slots in them to retain the silicone grease where the others don't. I put them in the '66 and the handling is very quick and tight. It's a less expensive upgrade than tubular arms.
What don't you like about the front disc brakes now ? I would speculate something isn't matched or set up right if they don't work well. The factory single piston discs are on millions of cars and function very well.
My personal opinion about rear discs is unless you plan to autocross, they are pointless. You need a regulator to turn the pressure down so far to prevent lockup that they don't do much more than a good set of drums. You can get 11" drums off a full size car in the bone yard for very little and have all the rear brake you need for the street.
I've been toying with the idea of doing something different with my suspension and brakes but I'd have to sell all my current stuff first. It would be a simple bolt on setup. All the R&D is done. Wheels and tires would go as well. If anyone is interested, you can check out the details here:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/703372/1970-chevrolet-el-camino
-- Edited by Back in Black on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 11:45:56 AM
I have decided that I want my car to handle better. Of course, I need to get it tuned (gotta book a date with Jim, but it's going to happen soon), and then edumacate myself in what I'm going to need.
Please point me towards some good references. I'm assuming the pro-touring section of TC, and Lateral-G would be good places, though I haven't checked them out. Also, what kinds of parts should I be looking at?
This will not be a big-dollar project. honestly, like the rest of my car's build, it will be as "on the cheap" as I can, though cost isn't the decision maker. It's also not going to be a winter project, it will be a year or more to save up and find stuff (unless a fairy car-father wants to sponsor me).
Currently, I have factory disc brakes, Helwig sway bars, and rear Southside machine bars. I would assume I'm looking at better brakes, shocks, springs, maybe a steering box change, and tires once I can actually use them. I don't really want to whoe pro-touring look so much as the feel. I'm most likely not going to be competitive for things like RSE based on my HP and budget.
I'll open this to everyone, but I know some are more well versend than others.
Mark Savitske is the guy to talk to at www.scandc.com
I'm interested in this as well Bryan, I've love to upgrade suspension & tires to be able to run some local autocross events just for fun. But, it will take some time before my car budget has recouped from the engine swap to do anything.
I had fun autocrossing on sunday at the show. Wish it would not have been such a long wait I would like to have tried a few more runs.
Hang on Barbie!
Check out this link to SC&C
I bought my stuff about 2-1/2 years ago using stage II plus components. At that time the package wasn't nearly as complete as it is now. Mark & I really just put a package together incorporating the parts I already had:
The kit/parts I ordered from SC&C was basically:
- Their adjustable upper arms
- The "tall" ball joints
- The springs they recommended (and supplied)
To work it backwards, I "deleted" from the current package:
- No sway bars (already had 1-1/8 front & OEM rear.
- No rear arms (had boxed lowers, and '64 ((semi-adjustable)) uppers installed) with polygraphite bushings.
- No shocks (already had new "non-specialty" HD/OEM replacements) - couldn't afford "fancy" ones.
I'm using the stock front lower arms (upgraded with polygraphite bushings), tires are 255/40/17's (Blizzak's... yeah, snow tires, but they came with the wheels), and a fast-ratio GM steering box (from a Trans Am/WS-6 car).
As y'all know, I'm a tight SOB with a buck... I'll make/build it (if I can) before I'll buy it, employ used or OEM when possible, or compromise until funds allow. I have a very limited budget for "toys".
I am VERY pleased with the performance and quality of the parts, and the handling/ride - and remember that my setup is a "hodgepodge" of existing parts mated to only the items necessary to get decent alignment specs & geometry. I am totally confident that if someone purchased their entire kit (as spec'd) it would even be more awesome.
I can equate the ride & handling to a late-model Z28,T/A... firm but not harsh. Very little body roll, and all of the GM "wallow" that we're used to is GONE.
I'm not very knowledgable on the suspension stuff but I agree on the brake fluid. We change it multiple times through a race season on our Hobby Stock racecar. It makes a difference.
-- Edited by Tim H on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 08:24:25 PM
If you want to stay with 15s, honestly there's not much point in doing anything more than springs and swaybars... If you want to go up to 17s or 18s, I'd recommend also getting 9" or wider wheels, so you can get some decent rubber on it. All that geometry improving and high-end gadgetry has only one purpose, to keep the maximum amount of rubber in contact with the road. You can spend thousands on getting the "perfect" geometry, but if someone spent only a few hundred to get 90% as good, but has 2" more rubber at each corner, he'll beat you, easily.
Next decision is brakes... anything more than "stock" disc/drum setup is not really necessary until you get on a course bigger than any autocross I've ever been on. Slowing several times from ~50mph in a 50-70sec course is no problem when you have cool-down time between runs. Slowing a second time after standing on them at 140 is a whole different story. Brakes = weight. Smaller is faster, until you overheat them... and then you crash. Good rotors and high-performance pads will work with the heat better than the cheap stuff. Good fresh fluid is even more important when you get to that point. If you decide bigger brakes are necessary, the C5/C6 stuff is really affordable, and makes the AFX spindle not seem so expensive... They can make wheel fitment a little tricky though, as the caliper sticks out past the hub flange.
After that, the rest is just the stuff that connects the pieces together, and tunes the handling... what will work best for you will vary based on what you decide for the above.
My biggest suggestion is to figure out the whole package, then buy what you really want the first time, even if it's only a small part of the overall setup... and don't change the plan half way through, unless it's something that won't make the parts you already bought obsolete.
I think Scott P has 17x8 wheels. I dont know what size brakes he has though.
Derek-you're saying wider rims, what size tires would be in the realm of your suggestion? I assume the 15" stopping point is because of the tall sidewalls which will negate any quickness you gain?
Either way, I think I'm going to upgrade my brakes as the next significant project. I don't like them, and I'm thinking I want to add rear disc ones while I'm at it. I swapped in a factory setup with rotors/pads from Brake and Equipment way back when.
Bryan, the problem with 15s is that you can't get performance tires for them, except in really small sizes (to fit Miatas and Civics)
My tire suggestion would be the biggest "Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec" that you can get, which is 265/40 in 17" or 275/40 in 18"... They're the only tire I would buy right now, but they're coming out with the Z2 next year, so you might want to wait (either for more possible sizes, or closeout deals on the Z1)
The SCCA just changed their rules for next year in the "Road Tire" classes, so hopefully that may create a market for bigger sizes from Dunlop.
For the 200tw requirement at all the musclecar events, I'd honestly rather have 275mm Dunlops than 315mm Nittos or BFGs... If they don't change the TW rating on the Z2 (which is supposed to be faster yet!), these might be my little secret for next year's events. ;)
How fast would something like those Dunlops wear? I know there is a lot of variables to wear, but if you did a handful of events a year, plus kept them on for normal driving, could you expect a couple of years out of them?
They do get hard though if they're allowed to freeze, so storage can be an issue.
Double adjustable coil over shocks in the front and Stocker Star 12-way adjustable shocks in the rear. Not R series.
If you still have rubber bushings in the front arms, I would replace them first with Pro-Thane. The Pro-Thane poly has slots in them to retain the silicone grease where the others don't. I put them in the '66 and the handling is very quick and tight. It's a less expensive upgrade than tubular arms.
What don't you like about the front disc brakes now ? I would speculate something isn't matched or set up right if they don't work well. The factory single piston discs are on millions of cars and function very well.
My personal opinion about rear discs is unless you plan to autocross, they are pointless. You need a regulator to turn the pressure down so far to prevent lockup that they don't do much more than a good set of drums. You can get 11" drums off a full size car in the bone yard for very little and have all the rear brake you need for the street.