I dropped the camaro at TPIS this afternoon. They are going to dyno tune it for me so it will be ready to rock and roll. Hope to have it back by the weekend. I will post some numbers on how it turns out.
Lost in the 60s said
Jun 6, 2012
67ss wrote:
I dropped the camaro at TPIS this afternoon. They are going to dyno tune it for me so it will be ready to rock and roll. Hope to have it back by the weekend. I will post some numbers on how it turns out.
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT !!!!
Time to join the Camaro Club too and get that car to Stillwater Motors on June 30th...
67ss said
Jun 6, 2012
I think I can make it that weekend, I'll put it on the calender.
Lost in the 60s said
Jun 6, 2012
67ss wrote:
I think I can make it that weekend, I'll put it on the calender.
Cool !! It is the day after the Chevelle Club night in No. St. Paul and everyone here is welcome to bring their Chevrolets as it's an All Chevy Show. I know Stan and Dashboard have been to it and I think a couple others too.
Bowtieman427 said
Jun 7, 2012
Cool I woulld love to get mine dyno tuned some day and give me a good base line to work with. Please let us know how it goes.
SShink said
Jun 7, 2012
Off the thread topic, but I added the Stillwater show to the club calendar on the 30th.
-- Edited by SShink on Thursday 7th of June 2012 04:28:33 PM
jim larson said
Jun 7, 2012
Lost in the 60s wrote:
67ss wrote:
I dropped the camaro at TPIS this afternoon. They are going to dyno tune it for me so it will be ready to rock and roll. Hope to have it back by the weekend. I will post some numbers on how it turns out.
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT !!!!
Time to join the Camaro Club too and get that car to Stillwater Motors on June 30th...
Got a little confused here. Looks like an all GM show this weekend in St. Paul. This shows is at Stillwaters motors. Maybe we should add it to the event calandar.
67ss said
Jun 7, 2012
Jim, those are two different shows. Yes there is a GM show this weekend at the fair grounds. The show Mitch refered to is put on by the camaro club and is on 6-30-12 at stillwater motors.
jim larson said
Jun 8, 2012
Going to try and make both.
67ss said
Jun 12, 2012
Car is done though things did not go as planned. It produced 11 psi of boost which is causing intake air temps to go to high. Because of that they did not flog it on the dyno to get any real numbers of what it produces. He had to just street drive and flog it to tune it and keep the temps down.
So now I am at a deliema of getting a bigger pulley to drop the boost to 8 psi to try and get the temps down. Other option is to install a methanol injection kit to come on at specific psi to help keep things under control.
Well it is safe to drive at this point which is the main concern. Will have to make some decision when I get it back and probably dyno it again at a later date.
bowtie said
Jun 12, 2012
Translation:
67 Camaro, fuel injected, supercharged, and possibly water/methanol injected.............. on skinny back tires.
67ss said
Jun 12, 2012
Little tires=weak link=less parts breakage for now.
Enganeer said
Jun 12, 2012
Or little tires + uber power = in ditch facing the wrong way if lucky + body parts mangled.
SShink said
Jun 12, 2012
Chris, I'm assuming the more psi, the more air compression, which = more heat?
So does this translate into higher engine temps, or other performance issues that are addressed by 'detuning' it?
67ss said
Jun 12, 2012
SShink wrote:
Chris, I'm assuming the more psi, the more air compression, which = more heat?
So does this translate into higher engine temps, or other performance issues that are addressed by 'detuning' it?
Yes the higher boost typically generates more heat in the intake, which in turn makes things more prone for detenation. If I could fit in intercooler in there somewhere 11 psi would be no problem. But since I can't it is best to tune it back a little. It is making way more power then I really need but it is an addiction as we all know.
John I did not think of it that way, I think I can keep it between the lines. Bigger tires will be in the future I just have not really found anything I like. Plus I kinda like the stock sleeper look.
My supercharger pulley showed up today, hope to have it on by the weekend and see how it runs. I also got some good info from Kenne Bell on intake temperatures. He told me that for every psi of boost it equals 10 degrees of temperature increase, then to add ambient temperature, and then 30 degrees of heat soak.
80 degrees for 8 psi of boost
80 degrees for ambient temp
30 degrees for heat soak
---------------------------
190 degree intake air temp
-- Edited by 67ss on Wednesday 20th of June 2012 05:08:19 PM
Bowtieman427 said
Jun 26, 2012
How was the dyno otherwise did they do a good job and were you happy with it. I may have my Velle there next Friday. Never did a chassis Dyno. I am a little worried having a 4400 stall. Hopefully can get soem ok runs with it where it can be tune off dyno. I am running a 1000HP Holley no boost of laughing gas. pretty simple setup. would like to get carb and timing dialed in better. plus can see if anything gettting hot. Jim let me know they check tranny temps too.
67ss said
Jun 26, 2012
Mine really never got dynoed because of the air temps. He did not want to break anything which I can understand. I would like to bring it back to him once I get the boost down so he can dyno to get it dialed in a little more in the upper rpm area. He basically street tuned it but again I don't think he ran it to hard because of the boost issue.
I am sure with your car he should be able to dial it in with no problems.
bowtie said
Jun 26, 2012
I'm also going to go down there, haven't set up a time yet but I will soon. (have to find a day off to do it and I'm all out for now).
Back in Black said
Jun 26, 2012
67ss wrote:
Car is done though things did not go as planned. It produced 11 psi of boost which is causing intake air temps to go to high. Because of that they did not flog it on the dyno to get any real numbers of what it produces. He had to just street drive and flog it to tune it and keep the temps down.
So now I am at a deliema of getting a bigger pulley to drop the boost to 8 psi to try and get the temps down. Other option is to install a methanol injection kit to come on at specific psi to help keep things under control.
Well it is safe to drive at this point which is the main concern. Will have to make some decision when I get it back and probably dyno it again at a later date.
I've been down this road. No way to install an intercooler so I went with water/meth injection. A year later I dumped the meth injection and converted to E85 and gained 40 rwhp just from switching to to it. Should have gone straight to E85. It's the way to go on any boosted application in my opinion.
E85 gives you liquid intercooling, race gas octane without the cost, more power, clean oil, safety margin on your tune, etc....
-- Edited by UsedToHaveAnElCamino on Tuesday 26th of June 2012 07:45:26 PM
67ss said
Jun 27, 2012
Yea really don't want to deal with E-85. If I want to drive it on a trip I don't want to have to worry about being able to find stations along the way. It should be just fine at 8 psi with the correct tune.
I did get the new pulley on last night and boost is right at 8 psi now so that is good to see. There are some bad spots in the tune that still need to be worked out. I am also messing with the TV cable adjustment to get the transmission shifting at the correct time. I had to redo my throttle linkage so it got messed up. It is coming along slow but the motor feels much strong with this supercharger then it did with the old one.
Back in Black said
Jun 28, 2012
67ss wrote:
Yea really don't want to deal with E-85. If I want to drive it on a trip I don't want to have to worry about being able to find stations along the way. It should be just fine at 8 psi with the correct tune.
I did get the new pulley on last night and boost is right at 8 psi now so that is good to see. There are some bad spots in the tune that still need to be worked out. I am also messing with the TV cable adjustment to get the transmission shifting at the correct time. I had to redo my throttle linkage so it got messed up. It is coming along slow but the motor feels much strong with this supercharger then it did with the old one.
I don't know how you're fuel system/tune is set up but I had a pump gas tune and a E85 tune and could switch back and forth in just a few minutes. I had to have that capability or I wouldn't have done it for the very reason you mention.
67ss said
Jun 28, 2012
I could do a switch chip like that but I don't have big enough injectors to run e-85 at this point. The car has way more power then I ever need but everbody knows it an addiction.
Back in Black said
Jun 28, 2012
67ss wrote:
I could do a switch chip like that but I don't have big enough injectors to run e-85 at this point. The car has way more power then I ever need but everbody knows it an addiction.
Famous last words.
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 5, 2012
Talked to Jim and Heading up to TPIS Friday morning. He says he should be able to dial in the car. Let you know how it goes.
67ss said
Jul 5, 2012
Sweet, curious to see what kind of numbers it does at the wheels.
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 5, 2012
Jim told me it will not be very good with the high stall, but should be able to tune it. I just do not like it leaning out under WOT which I noticed it doing. does not help that the idle vac is about 3-5# and cruise it about 12-14#.
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 10, 2012
Car got tuned. It was ok hotter then can be it was 104 in the garage and got hotter when we were running the engine made 530HP and tuned on the conservative side 33TT (I have lots of playing room here) found out my timing was only 20TT and that the distributor must have loosend up. This is something I am going to have to keep an eye on and rejetted leaner cause of the heat it was running rich. He commented not to take the HP and Torque numbers to serious with the high stall converter I have. My concern was to fix the lean out under WOT.
After all this Dyno tune and track/strip tune are 2 different things as I found out from this experience. I still have the lean out under WOT. During the dyno when we took the rear bowl off I noticed no notched float or jet extention and there was a 6.5PV onthe secondary side. this is a Holley 1000HP which is suppose to have that in there. We looked up the numbers and it is an old Holley HP and perhaps 10-15years ago those goodies were not added like today. This can explain my lean out condition under WOT as the car lifts off the gas it going to the rear of the bowl and the secondary side is not getting gas. Thinking I am going to have to redo the secondary side of my carb. I was really hoping we were going to do that there. They really did not have the parts there to remedy this issue which I found quite strange. They bascially had gaskets and jets. NO PV, NO PV blocks, no accelerator pumps or squirters, no float extetions or notched floats ? But none the less the car held up very well considering the heat and it was more of a learning experience for me. There were no leaks the tranny temp did not get to hot which was another concern I had.
-I have the jet extentions and notched float on order -I also orderd a PV plug and a few sets of jets for the secondary side, to use if aboove does not work.
Going to try the notched float and jet extentions first. I have a feeling it will be still lean as the PV may be starving too. Going to do one change at time to see if I can fix this lean out.
SteveS said
Jul 10, 2012
Are you able to use any of the power valves, squiters or accelerator cams you got from me?
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 10, 2012
I will be looking at it closer soon in between baseball and softball games : ) Not going to mess with to much yet until the extentions and notched floats come in. I really think it is gas going to back of bowl the carb, because the carb worked great on dyno NO lean out what so ever fed the engine fine all the way through. Put the car on the street or strip picks up front end so much and accelerates so hard the gas may go to back of bowl away from the jets and/or PV in the secondary.
Once I get that solved I will play with PV on primary side as my Vac is 3-5# at idel and Primary PV is 6.5 may want to try lower PV like 2.5, 3.5. or 4.5.
Squirters, cams, will be next.
I bet I will be trying some of the parts down the road especially pump cams. I have a 30cc primary pump and a 50cc secondary pump have not id my squirters yet. I honestly thought the carb had extentions in it, but it did not : (
SteveS said
Jul 10, 2012
I'm sure your stall, the heat, and your Gear Vendor OD used up a little power, but weren't you around 750hp on the engine dyno? I'm definatley not a Dyno expert, but doesn't 30% drivetrain loss seems like a lot?
Scott Parkhurst said
Jul 10, 2012
20 - 25 percent is normal. With the other stuff you listed, it's in the ballpark. Again- the 'hard' peak numbers don't always transfer from dyno-to-dyno either.
Mine was real close- 540 on the engine dyno at TPIS, 580 to the rear wheels with 150-horse nitrous shot at Car Craft last year. That's right about 700 at the crank, minus 20 percent to the wheels...580!
bowtie said
Jul 10, 2012
30 % sounds about right to me.
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 10, 2012
530HP did seemed very low given it is 758HP at crank, but TH400, GVOD, DANA 60 rear, 4400 stall, alternator, power steering pump. water pump, lots of loss plus it was HOT. The high stall is a killer in chassis dyno as it never really hooks up. This is why I was happy tranny fluid never got over 200 degrees during dynos. All that slipage and friction. Plus the dyno loads the car down different then road so like Jim said at the dyno the numbers are relative. We started it was 430HP got 20HP with jet change and then found out 20TT put it up to 33TT and 530HP. I have room there to play. We thought there was something wrong with my distributor I took it apart there and it was fine it just slipped. Per Jim at TPIS "the best and true way to dyno your car is at the track" He may have been just appeasing me : ) I am not concern with dyno numbers more concerned solving lean out and see if the car can go faster. More concern where we go from a baseline to final.
On a stick car there is NO converter or tranny slip so loss much less loss then auto with a high stall. A high stall acts like a slipping clutch on dyno. That is why we see stick cars trap in 1/4 faster then autos of equal power. Autos usually make it up in first 60ft fast off line better ****s etc stick cars catch you on the big end. The autos have dominated the strip because of bracket racing as they can be more consistant.
bowtie said
Jul 10, 2012
I heard you picked up something like 80 lbs-ft too?
I dropped the camaro at TPIS this afternoon. They are going to dyno tune it for me so it will be ready to rock and roll. Hope to have it back by the weekend. I will post some numbers on how it turns out.
I think I can make it that weekend, I'll put it on the calender.
-- Edited by SShink on Thursday 7th of June 2012 04:28:33 PM
Got a little confused here. Looks like an all GM show this weekend in St. Paul. This shows is at Stillwaters motors. Maybe we should add it to the event calandar.
Jim, those are two different shows. Yes there is a GM show this weekend at the fair grounds. The show Mitch refered to is put on by the camaro club and is on 6-30-12 at stillwater motors.
Going to try and make both.
Car is done though things did not go as planned. It produced 11 psi of boost which is causing intake air temps to go to high. Because of that they did not flog it on the dyno to get any real numbers of what it produces. He had to just street drive and flog it to tune it and keep the temps down.
So now I am at a deliema of getting a bigger pulley to drop the boost to 8 psi to try and get the temps down. Other option is to install a methanol injection kit to come on at specific psi to help keep things under control.
Well it is safe to drive at this point which is the main concern. Will have to make some decision when I get it back and probably dyno it again at a later date.
Translation:
67 Camaro, fuel injected, supercharged, and possibly water/methanol injected.............. on skinny back tires.
Little tires=weak link=less parts breakage for now.
Or little tires + uber power = in ditch facing the wrong way if lucky + body parts mangled.
Chris, I'm assuming the more psi, the more air compression, which = more heat?
So does this translate into higher engine temps, or other performance issues that are addressed by 'detuning' it?
Yes the higher boost typically generates more heat in the intake, which in turn makes things more prone for detenation. If I could fit in intercooler in there somewhere 11 psi would be no problem. But since I can't it is best to tune it back a little. It is making way more power then I really need but it is an addiction as we all know.
John I did not think of it that way, I think I can keep it between the lines. Bigger tires will be in the future I just have not really found anything I like. Plus I kinda like the stock sleeper look.
shhhh I hear something
mini tub... mini tub... mini tub...
My supercharger pulley showed up today, hope to have it on by the weekend and see how it runs. I also got some good info from Kenne Bell on intake temperatures. He told me that for every psi of boost it equals 10 degrees of temperature increase, then to add ambient temperature, and then 30 degrees of heat soak.
80 degrees for 8 psi of boost
80 degrees for ambient temp
30 degrees for heat soak
---------------------------
190 degree intake air temp
-- Edited by 67ss on Wednesday 20th of June 2012 05:08:19 PM
Mine really never got dynoed because of the air temps. He did not want to break anything which I can understand. I would like to bring it back to him once I get the boost down so he can dyno to get it dialed in a little more in the upper rpm area. He basically street tuned it but again I don't think he ran it to hard because of the boost issue.
I am sure with your car he should be able to dial it in with no problems.
I've been down this road. No way to install an intercooler so I went with water/meth injection. A year later I dumped the meth injection and converted to E85 and gained 40 rwhp just from switching to to it. Should have gone straight to E85. It's the way to go on any boosted application in my opinion.
E85 gives you liquid intercooling, race gas octane without the cost, more power, clean oil, safety margin on your tune, etc....
-- Edited by UsedToHaveAnElCamino on Tuesday 26th of June 2012 07:45:26 PM
Yea really don't want to deal with E-85. If I want to drive it on a trip I don't want to have to worry about being able to find stations along the way. It should be just fine at 8 psi with the correct tune.
I did get the new pulley on last night and boost is right at 8 psi now so that is good to see. There are some bad spots in the tune that still need to be worked out. I am also messing with the TV cable adjustment to get the transmission shifting at the correct time. I had to redo my throttle linkage so it got messed up. It is coming along slow but the motor feels much strong with this supercharger then it did with the old one.
I don't know how you're fuel system/tune is set up but I had a pump gas tune and a E85 tune and could switch back and forth in just a few minutes. I had to have that capability or I wouldn't have done it for the very reason you mention.
I could do a switch chip like that but I don't have big enough injectors to run e-85 at this point. The car has way more power then I ever need but everbody knows it an addiction.
Famous last words.
Sweet, curious to see what kind of numbers it does at the wheels.
After all this Dyno tune and track/strip tune are 2 different things as I found out from this experience. I still have the lean out under WOT. During the dyno when we took the rear bowl off I noticed no notched float or jet extention and there was a 6.5PV onthe secondary side. this is a Holley 1000HP which is suppose to have that in there. We looked up the numbers and it is an old Holley HP and perhaps 10-15years ago those goodies were not added like today. This can explain my lean out condition under WOT as the car lifts off the gas it going to the rear of the bowl and the secondary side is not getting gas. Thinking I am going to have to redo the secondary side of my carb. I was really hoping we were going to do that there. They really did not have the parts there to remedy this issue which I found quite strange. They bascially had gaskets and jets. NO PV, NO PV blocks, no accelerator pumps or squirters, no float extetions or notched floats ?
But none the less the car held up very well considering the heat and it was more of a learning experience for me. There were no leaks the tranny temp did not get to hot which was another concern I had.
-I have the jet extentions and notched float on order
-I also orderd a PV plug and a few sets of jets for the secondary side, to use if aboove does not work.
Going to try the notched float and jet extentions first. I have a feeling it will be still lean as the PV may be starving too. Going to do one change at time to see if I can fix this lean out.
Once I get that solved I will play with PV on primary side as my Vac is 3-5# at idel and Primary PV is 6.5 may want to try lower PV like 2.5, 3.5. or 4.5.
Squirters, cams, will be next.
I bet I will be trying some of the parts down the road especially pump cams. I have a 30cc primary pump and a 50cc secondary pump have not id my squirters yet.
I honestly thought the carb had extentions in it, but it did not : (
I'm sure your stall, the heat, and your Gear Vendor OD used up a little power, but weren't you around 750hp on the engine dyno? I'm definatley not a Dyno expert, but doesn't 30% drivetrain loss seems like a lot?
Mine was real close- 540 on the engine dyno at TPIS, 580 to the rear wheels with 150-horse nitrous shot at Car Craft last year. That's right about 700 at the crank, minus 20 percent to the wheels...580!
On a stick car there is NO converter or tranny slip so loss much less loss then auto with a high stall. A high stall acts like a slipping clutch on dyno. That is why we see stick cars trap in 1/4 faster then autos of equal power. Autos usually make it up in first 60ft fast off line better ****s etc stick cars catch you on the big end. The autos have dominated the strip because of bracket racing as they can be more consistant.