I was talking to an acquaintance and was telling him my plans for the Chevelle. I had mentioned that I was planning on replacing my solid cam with a hydraulic one. He drag races and mentioned that his engine builder told him that a solid cam would produce up to 30% more HP than a smililar spec hydraulic. Was curious to hear more opinions on how accurate that statement might be...
67ss said
Jul 15, 2011
I could see a solid making a couple more horse but not 30%. The only real difference I have ever heard is the solids will go higher in the RPM band because of not having lifter float.
Now I could see that statment being true maybe for a roller cam.
-- Edited by 67ss on Friday 15th of July 2011 07:18:24 AM
bowtie said
Jul 15, 2011
I agree. I can't see a spec'd out 454 making 400hp suddenly making 520.
Go hyd roller and make a lot of torque, then you won't have to worry about floating since you're at 500hp at 4000rpm
SShink said
Jul 15, 2011
Oscar, I've also had interest in using a roller hyd cam some day too. I searched TC, and found the link to this kit on evil bay for $900. Looks like it's about the least expensive way to do it:
Very timely post; as I type this, my A/C brackets are removed and my valve covers are off so I can adjust the solid lifters on my XAA code 454 BBC. Something I find myself doing once a year and the reason my solid cam and lifters will come out this winter to be replaced with hydraulic cam and lifters.
But too your question, 30% seems like a lot. Having said that, significantly more HP and torque can be developed with solid lifters but they don’t make the HP. They allow a well-built engine (valve size, pistons, fuel scheduling, ignition, timing and lower end strength, etc.) the ability to produce much greater HP at higher RPMs and to operate in an RPM range well above the functional operating range of hydraulic lifters.
An example, my BB is a factory crate four bolt, 454 built to LS6 specs with solid lifters. I’ve not had it in the high rpm range a lot but it been to 7000 RPM a couple of times. One thing I’ve always noticed is, as it passes 5800 or so RPM it’s like it adds cylinders and just above 6000 RPM it’s like the monster comes out of the box and it’s still pulling past 6800 RPM.
The down side, things like AC compressors, power steering pumps and alternators don’t like operating in that RPM range and deep grove pulleys are a must. Valves require adjustment at set intervals and there noisy.
Hydraulic lifters are quite, never need adjusting after the initial adjustment and on engines that have a power curve that peaks out in the mid to upper 5000 RPM range will produce ample HP for street and occasional track use. Really big plus, there idiot proof.
So having offered my opinion I’ll go out and finish adjusting my *&^% solid lifters for the last time, they will be replaced with hydraulics this coming winter. Before you go with solids spend an afternoon with someone adjusting a set of solids.
67ss said
Jul 15, 2011
The funny thing is Mike's motor has solid lifters in it and he can't decide if he wants to go back to hydraulic.
OscarZ said
Jul 15, 2011
The motor revs quick and has great throttle response but the lifter noise gets irratating and adjusting the lifters is something I do not enjoy. Back when I put the motor together I wanted a street/strip car. Now I want to go cruising with the A/C on (that's a different project). I'm only running a 350 small block so giving up that kind of power would factor into my decision. I am debating on putting in the same cam that I had in my Cutlass which was Comp Cam XE274 (274/286 adv dur, 230/236 @ .050, 487/490 lift). The solid I have in there now is a TFX brand with 240/240 dur @ .050 and 510/510 lift. I'm thinking now that I might just pull the transmission out and if the cause of the mystery noise that led me to park the car is diagnosed by doing that then leave the motor as is. If I need to tear into the motor to diagnose the problem then replace the cam as long as it is out and apart.
67ss said
Jul 15, 2011
Might not need to pull the transmission completly out. Just take the inspection cover off and remove the torque converter bolts and slide it back. Start it up and see if the noise is any different.
Chris R said
Jul 15, 2011
Solid lifters are higher maintanance then hydraulic. Although, a hydraulic roller might be the way to go. Seems to work for the small blocks they used leading up to the LS motors. They are all hydraulic rollers. I dont know what the recommended service was on the old solid lifter engines that came stock in a lot of muscle cars. If the car wasnt originally a solid lifter motor, the hassle of adjusting valves would get old.
What was the cam in that motor you had in the Olds? That sounded pretty nice.
SShink said
Jul 15, 2011
My personal experience with Comp Cams XE series is that they are 'sewing machine like' clackity clackity due to the aggresive exhaust valve profiles that slam them shut.
I have to say I'm pleased with the Melling cam that I got from Competition Engines as far as the valve train being very quiet. It doesn't hurt that I used stock valve train components either.
The reason I was considering a roller hydraulic cam/lifters is because of the performance gains, no cam break in required, and not having to worry about zinc levels in the oil. In other words, modern technology.
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 15, 2011
there are a lot more variables to consider. Are you after every bit of HP 1) Are you planning street or street/strip or strip only? 2) Are we talking Hyd tappet vs solid roller ? or Hyd vs solid tappet ? 3) What duration and lift are we comparing or considering? You can get a way with a bigger cam and much better perforamnce profile that will work on the street with a solid or solid roller. Not sure about 30% gain. He may be considering the area under the curves, but hyd to solid you get more lift and better open close ramps, on the right heads makes more power, 30% seems like a stretch and a very general statement. I depneds greatly on heads, Cubes, and etc I can say 50-70HP more is not out of the question in BBC and if you could get a bigger cam in more benifit there. If we are talking solid roller for the street parts are very $$$$. I have read to many bad things to trust solid roller lifters with needle bearings. They like RPM high idle RPM to keep oiled and if they go bad news little steel bearings all over in the crank case. Had a friend that toasted cam, crank piston and cylinder wall when his went. If needle style was all that was offers, Isky Red Zones and Crower, Moral make the better ones I went with the Isky EzRoll no bearings solid roller and Jesel shaft mount rockers . Just checked them motor has 500 miles and lash is still perfect. Consider having no obstruction easy cover removal if going solids.
Solid tappet is a good deal with better performance with very little cost only drawback is having to adjust lash once in awhile. I do not find that to be tha big of a deal and I get to check things out making sure all it clean and good. If you have many obstructions to taking covers off it could be a real PITA somethign to think about.
My next build will be a Hyd Roller. I found a Vortec Small block complete engine real cheap to build for 67 Impala.
OscarZ said
Jul 15, 2011
67ss wrote:
Might not need to pull the transmission completly out. Just take the inspection cover off and remove the torque converter bolts and slide it back. Start it up and see if the noise is any different.
The mystery part of the noise is that it went away. It made the noise after I got on it pretty good playing by my old house on a deserted road. Luckily it started doing it right as I was pulling into the garage. It made a very loud knocking noise that was there every time I started it. Had the car towed to my rental garage at the time and when the guy that built the motor came to listen to it we couldn't get it to make it again even under load with the car in gear held by the brakes. It has never happened since. Something definitely was wrong but may have clearenced itself or ??? Was building the Cutlass and didn't have space to have 2 apart at a time. Then bought my house and wanted the garage done before taking it apart. Garage still isn't done and decided to just get it back on the road and make changes over time as I can instead of one big redo. This year just want to get it driving. Then will do various projects in the next few years until it's done how I want it.
-- Edited by OscarZ on Friday 15th of July 2011 09:01:28 PM
-- Edited by OscarZ on Friday 15th of July 2011 09:14:22 PM
Lost in the 60s said
Jul 18, 2011
I'm assuming you have an oil pressure gauge on a motor built like that. Did the pressure ever change/drop with the noise ? Now that it has sat, I would drop the oil and see if there is any trace of metal particles in it. You can cut the filter open too for inspection.
If the noise went away, it may have been a bolt coming out. I'm with Chris, pull the inspection cover and look at the converter bolts/flex plate. If there is no visual problem, I would drive it some and see if it comes back. Extremely hard to diagnose/find a problem that you can't trace.
Bowtieman427 said
Jul 18, 2011
What kind of knocking ??....Do you think it was valve train knock ? I would check oil pressure.
If is a loud deep knock I would think it would be more bearing related. The interesting part is it goes away ? I would check Oil pressure ASAP. hot and cold. If your pressure is low. I would not drive it anymore I would check the bottom end of the engine main or rod bearings.
-- Edited by Bowtieman427 on Monday 18th of July 2011 09:26:05 AM
Scott Parkhurst said
Jul 18, 2011
I've been running a solid roller in my 383 since it came together in 2004.
You guys know I'm not easy on it. On the contrary- I built it to beat on, and I beat on it hard. I even spun a rod bearing last May and had it rebuilt again by September.
While it was apart, I'd planned to have the Comp solid roller lifters rebuilt. I had them checked at the engine shop, and they said they were still like new. No need to do anything. So, we threw 'em back in.
I've been beating on it ever since. When I check the lash, it's right where I set it last time. The newer poly locks just don't move like the old ones used to. If you set lash correctly, you shouldn't have to re-set it much.
Kevin stated he checks his once a year. That doesn't seem like very often to me. But, I don't have A/C or anything either. Checking lash once a year when I pull it out of winter storage isn't too much for me, considering how hard I am on it.
I won't ever choose a non-roller cam again. If it's for someone else, it'll be a hydraulic roller. If it's for me, it'll be a solid roller. I love 'em, and I dig the power they bring. I don't mind working on this engine.
I was talking to an acquaintance and was telling him my plans for the Chevelle. I had mentioned that I was planning on replacing my solid cam with a hydraulic one. He drag races and mentioned that his engine builder told him that a solid cam would produce up to 30% more HP than a smililar spec hydraulic. Was curious to hear more opinions on how accurate that statement might be...
I could see a solid making a couple more horse but not 30%. The only real difference I have ever heard is the solids will go higher in the RPM band because of not having lifter float.
Now I could see that statment being true maybe for a roller cam.
-- Edited by 67ss on Friday 15th of July 2011 07:18:24 AM
Go hyd roller and make a lot of torque, then you won't have to worry about floating since you're at 500hp at 4000rpm
Oscar, I've also had interest in using a roller hyd cam some day too. I searched TC, and found the link to this kit on evil bay for $900. Looks like it's about the least expensive way to do it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LUNATI-396-454-CHEVY-292-300-VOODOO-HYD-ROLLER-CAM-KIT-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e6c5addaQQitemZ360354000346QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories?clk_rvr_id=247763081613
But too your question, 30% seems like a lot. Having said that, significantly more HP and torque can be developed with solid lifters but they don’t make the HP. They allow a well-built engine (valve size, pistons, fuel scheduling, ignition, timing and lower end strength, etc.) the ability to produce much greater HP at higher RPMs and to operate in an RPM range well above the functional operating range of hydraulic lifters.
An example, my BB is a factory crate four bolt, 454 built to LS6 specs with solid lifters. I’ve not had it in the high rpm range a lot but it been to 7000 RPM a couple of times. One thing I’ve always noticed is, as it passes 5800 or so RPM it’s like it adds cylinders and just above 6000 RPM it’s like the monster comes out of the box and it’s still pulling past 6800 RPM.
The down side, things like AC compressors, power steering pumps and alternators don’t like operating in that RPM range and deep grove pulleys are a must. Valves require adjustment at set intervals and there noisy.
Hydraulic lifters are quite, never need adjusting after the initial adjustment and on engines that have a power curve that peaks out in the mid to upper 5000 RPM range will produce ample HP for street and occasional track use. Really big plus, there idiot proof.
So having offered my opinion I’ll go out and finish adjusting my *&^% solid lifters for the last time, they will be replaced with hydraulics this coming winter. Before you go with solids spend an afternoon with someone adjusting a set of solids.
The funny thing is Mike's motor has solid lifters in it and he can't decide if he wants to go back to hydraulic.
Might not need to pull the transmission completly out. Just take the inspection cover off and remove the torque converter bolts and slide it back. Start it up and see if the noise is any different.
Solid lifters are higher maintanance then hydraulic. Although, a hydraulic roller might be the way to go. Seems to work for the small blocks they used leading up to the LS motors. They are all hydraulic rollers. I dont know what the recommended service was on the old solid lifter engines that came stock in a lot of muscle cars. If the car wasnt originally a solid lifter motor, the hassle of adjusting valves would get old.
What was the cam in that motor you had in the Olds? That sounded pretty nice.
My personal experience with Comp Cams XE series is that they are 'sewing machine like' clackity clackity due to the aggresive exhaust valve profiles that slam them shut.
I have to say I'm pleased with the Melling cam that I got from Competition Engines as far as the valve train being very quiet. It doesn't hurt that I used stock valve train components either.
The reason I was considering a roller hydraulic cam/lifters is because of the performance gains, no cam break in required, and not having to worry about zinc levels in the oil. In other words, modern technology.
1) Are you planning street or street/strip or strip only?
2) Are we talking Hyd tappet vs solid roller ? or Hyd vs solid tappet ?
3) What duration and lift are we comparing or considering?
You can get a way with a bigger cam and much better perforamnce profile that will work on the street with a solid or solid roller.
Not sure about 30% gain. He may be considering the area under the curves, but hyd to solid you get more lift and better open close ramps, on the right heads makes more power, 30% seems like a stretch and a very general statement. I depneds greatly on heads, Cubes, and etc
I can say 50-70HP more is not out of the question in BBC and if you could get a bigger cam in more benifit there.
If we are talking solid roller for the street parts are very $$$$. I have read to many bad things to trust solid roller lifters with needle bearings. They like RPM high idle RPM to keep oiled and if they go bad news little steel bearings all over in the crank case. Had a friend that toasted cam, crank piston and cylinder wall when his went. If needle style was all that was offers, Isky Red Zones and Crower, Moral make the better ones
I went with the Isky EzRoll no bearings solid roller and Jesel shaft mount rockers . Just checked them motor has 500 miles and lash is still perfect. Consider having no obstruction easy cover removal if going solids.
Solid tappet is a good deal with better performance with very little cost only drawback is having to adjust lash once in awhile. I do not find that to be tha big of a deal and I get to check things out making sure all it clean and good. If you have many obstructions to taking covers off it could be a real PITA somethign to think about.
My next build will be a Hyd Roller. I found a Vortec Small block complete engine real cheap to build for 67 Impala.
The mystery part of the noise is that it went away.
It made the noise after I got on it pretty good playing by my old house on a deserted road. Luckily it started doing it right as I was pulling into the garage. It made a very loud knocking noise that was there every time I started it. Had the car towed to my rental garage at the time and when the guy that built the motor came to listen to it we couldn't get it to make it again even under load with the car in gear held by the brakes. It has never happened since. Something definitely was wrong but may have clearenced itself or ??? Was building the Cutlass and didn't have space to have 2 apart at a time. Then bought my house and wanted the garage done before taking it apart. Garage still isn't done and decided to just get it back on the road and make changes over time as I can instead of one big redo. This year just want to get it driving. Then will do various projects in the next few years until it's done how I want it.
-- Edited by OscarZ on Friday 15th of July 2011 09:01:28 PM
-- Edited by OscarZ on Friday 15th of July 2011 09:14:22 PM
I'm assuming you have an oil pressure gauge on a motor built like that. Did the pressure ever change/drop with the noise ? Now that it has sat, I would drop the oil and see if there is any trace of metal particles in it. You can cut the filter open too for inspection.
If the noise went away, it may have been a bolt coming out. I'm with Chris, pull the inspection cover and look at the converter bolts/flex plate. If there is no visual problem, I would drive it some and see if it comes back. Extremely hard to diagnose/find a problem that you can't trace.
What kind of knocking ??....Do you think it was valve train knock ? I would check oil pressure.
If is a loud deep knock I would think it would be more bearing related. The interesting part is it goes away ?
I would check Oil pressure ASAP. hot and cold. If your pressure is low. I would not drive it anymore I would check the bottom end of the engine main or rod bearings.
-- Edited by Bowtieman427 on Monday 18th of July 2011 09:26:05 AM
You guys know I'm not easy on it. On the contrary- I built it to beat on, and I beat on it hard. I even spun a rod bearing last May and had it rebuilt again by September.
While it was apart, I'd planned to have the Comp solid roller lifters rebuilt. I had them checked at the engine shop, and they said they were still like new. No need to do anything. So, we threw 'em back in.
I've been beating on it ever since. When I check the lash, it's right where I set it last time. The newer poly locks just don't move like the old ones used to. If you set lash correctly, you shouldn't have to re-set it much.
Kevin stated he checks his once a year. That doesn't seem like very often to me. But, I don't have A/C or anything either. Checking lash once a year when I pull it out of winter storage isn't too much for me, considering how hard I am on it.
I won't ever choose a non-roller cam again. If it's for someone else, it'll be a hydraulic roller. If it's for me, it'll be a solid roller. I love 'em, and I dig the power they bring. I don't mind working on this engine.