I am tackling the biggest project on my list this winter and by biggest I mean biggest PITA. Last tear I took the body off my car, had the frame coated, replaced a few floor chunks, and dropped everything back togther.
Putting it back on last year the body would not sit on the front most mounts (mounts under the firewall). Looking in the Fisher manual (this is a 2 dr coupe), it appears the fronts and the next body mounts back (mounts just to the outside of the front seats) are different P/N's. They are the same diameter though and my repop mount kit shows them as being the same P/N's (can be mixed). Posting on TC, members spoke about turning down the ones next to the front seats a bit on theirs to get them to fit. It took them down to almost a half inch tall! Finally the body sat on the front mounts.
Put everything back on, mount the core support and go to put on the front fenders... The fenders hung about 1/2-1" max over the core support! Basicaly the firewall was up too high compared to the core support as I thought. I had to pull them down to mount them, shouldn't be like that I think.
Threw it on the winter project list....
Went last week and looked at my cousin's Lemans (72', same as my Chevelle) and took body mount measurements. It appears his front mount spaces the body 1" from the frame, go home and measure mine, within about 1/8" - 1/4"of his.
Lifted the body up a few inches tonight and looked to see if anything moved or caught, set it back down and the same measurement.
I am assuming one of a few things happened here, but am looking for suggestions:
1) Body sits too high on firewall mounts (then why did I have to turn down the mounts behind them as mentioned above?)
2) Body is tweaked, but everything sits level on the car, body sits square to the frame, and the doors lined properly when fit.
3) Core Support mount is too low (just thought of this as typing this post).
I am stumped and know I am going to have a good amount of time into test fitting to get this right, any suggestions?
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 18, 2011
Shim the core support to match the fender line. This was very common right from the factory. My 67 GTO had 3 shims on the right and 2 on the left to level/square the fit and 1 shim under the right forward body mount. My 70 Chevelle had 1 shim under the right side of the support too, when I replaced the rubber mounts a couple years ago.
Did you have the frame checked for square/level while the body was off ? It could have been tweaked too.
Tim H said
Jan 18, 2011
Is your car sitting on it's tires or on jack stands? If it is not on the tires get it there first. Jackstands will make the frame move some. I assume the body mount bolts are torqued to the correct lbs.
I agree with LIT60's many core supports have shims.
Also once you have this part licked keep the core support loose (lightly snug) when you go to hang the front sheetmetal. Many times you will have to pull it from side to side to get the fenders and hood aligned.
If the core support is not the one you took off the car it may not line up properly so some tweaking may be required.
Leave the inner front wheel wells off untill all the other sheetmetal is aligned and bolted up especially if they are new.
Best of luck with the alignment.
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 18, 2011
Ahhhh........excellent point, Tim. I was assuming it was on the tires...
The frame horns can drop over an inch if on frame stands, especially if they are under the front body mount area.
Tim H said
Jan 18, 2011
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Ahhhh........excellent point, Tim. I was assuming it was on the tires...
The frame horns can drop over an inch if on frame stands, especially if they are under the front body mount area.
Yep learned that one the hard way.
Darn nice project you have going on there Mitch.
Pushrod said
Jan 18, 2011
Boy am I glad I read this post, good to know when mine goes back together, BTW my core support had one shim on pass side and two on drivers side, solves that question! HMMMMMMMMMM....
seagrams72 said
Jan 18, 2011
Car is always on all four rubbers when lining up fenders and doors. I didn't know there were shims under the core support, but now I do. The car has been dismantled and put back toghether so many times no wonder it needs readjustment. If anyone with a 68'-72' has a tape measure in their engine bay, please let me know a rough distance of the frame horn to the bottom of the core support (1st gen is probably dang near the same). Only reason why I ask is since I had the 1/2-1" overhang I am worried the body mount is incorrect there. I would rather fix it correctly then shim out something to make it work. i am still uneasy about how I had to turn down that middle bushing so much and the large overhang, but if packing a few shims in works then pack em' in. Here comes the body shims and test fitting!
bowtie said
Jan 18, 2011
Thanks for posting and everyone responding, I never knew any of this.
Chris R said
Jan 18, 2011
I learned all about this 15 years ago when I put a nicer core support on my 66. Had to use a small stack of shims to get it to line up to the fenders on each side.
seagrams72 said
Jan 18, 2011
Thanks again for all of the responses. I used to post more often on TC, but the knowledge base on NCC seems great.
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 19, 2011
seagrams72 wrote:
Thanks again for all of the responses. I used to post more often on TC, but the knowledge base on NCC seems great.
When Al sold out, TC lost, and still seems to be losing, a number of regular guys who shared valuable knowledge. I still ask questions there too, but don't get much in the way of useful info anymore...
Tim H said
Jan 19, 2011
One other item, I have yet to see a repop core support that all the bolt holes line up with the originals. So if you are replacing one with a repop drilling new holes is usually required, don't fight it forever trying to get all the holes lined up. Sometimes even if the holes line up the welded nuts are off center of the holes.
more ambition than brains said
Jan 19, 2011
We could also do a "Body Fit 001" this saturday. I plan on having at least one Chevelle (66) and perhaps the Biscayne (Biskwik) that we did the frame off on here this Saturday.
They could be used for a show and tell.
Karl
seagrams72 said
Jan 19, 2011
Core support is in good shape, still the original so one less new variable for me to worry about.
A demo would be great on saturday. I seem to spend hours lining up some doors or panels only to "live with" the results and have to come back to it at a later date to fix it again. A few methods for lining up panels or doors on these type of cars would be good to know if this demo has not been done before or something others would like to learn about.
Dave Seitz said
Jan 19, 2011
more ambition than brains wrote:
We could also do a "Body Fit 001" this saturday. I plan on having at least one Chevelle (66) and perhaps the Biscayne (Biskwik) that we did the frame off on here this Saturday. They could be used for a show and tell. Karl
Hey now that is a good deal!
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 19, 2011
more ambition than brains wrote:
We could also do a "Body Fit 001" this saturday. I plan on having at least one Chevelle (66) and perhaps the Biscayne (Biskwik) that we did the frame off on here this Saturday. They could be used for a show and tell. Karl
Wish I had my '66 ready for that stage, I would "volunteer" it for a demo. Maybe we can do another "paint 101" in a month and shoot it.....
bowtie said
Jan 19, 2011
that would be great! I think most of us could learn something, thanks!
Chris R said
Jan 19, 2011
I still remember that meeting at Karls when he took a 66SS hood and gave us a how to regarding lining it up on the car. Learned quite a bit. I still remember him tapping lightly on the hinge with a ratchet in his hand just to bump the hood a touch to get it exact.
A fender alignment would actually be a nice how-to.
seagrams72 said
Jan 20, 2011
Nice to know I am not the only one who could use a few points with this subject.
jim larson said
Jan 22, 2011
Don't know if this pertains to your year; but on my 66 when I installed the bushings it was not possible to pull the body down any more then to correct distance as the design of the bushings had the bottom washer bottom out against the metal insert from the top bushing, then you torque it. Are you sure you don't have them upside down? Are you sure you have the correct bushings for the radiator support and installed correctly.
Also the bushing by the seat in the middle of the door is a little different, you have to modify it to get it to fit properly. The bolt is different, the washer is different , the bottom bushing, and top bushing are different. And as far as I know, it is not reproduced.
The reason for shimming the front horns, is it would be almost impossible to get those two appendages that stick out front to be perfectly level with each other, etc. Body is held in place mainly the the 4 bushings on each side. The rear frame rails bend so easily that they conform to the structure of the body when tightened up.
-- Edited by jim larson on Saturday 22nd of January 2011 07:43:29 AM
seagrams72 said
Jan 22, 2011
jim larson wrote:
Don't know if this pertains to your year; but on my 66 when I installed the bushings it was not possible to pull the body down any more then to correct distance as the design of the bushings had the bottom washer bottom out against the metal insert from the top bushing, then you torque it. Are you sure you don't have them upside down? Are you sure you have the correct bushings for the radiator support and installed correctly.
Also the bushing by the seat in the middle of the door is a little different, you have to modify it to get it to fit properly. The bolt is different, the washer is different , the bottom bushing, and top bushing are different. And as far as I know, it is not reproduced.
The reason for shimming the front horns, is it would be almost impossible to get those two appendages that stick out front to be perfectly level with each other, etc. Body is held in place mainly the the 4 bushings on each side. The rear frame rails bend so easily that they conform to the structure of the body when tightened up.
-- Edited by jim larson on Saturday 22nd of January 2011 07:43:29 AM
Thanks, I have checked against the kit directions and they are all in the correct orientation and position. I did have to modify that middle bushing, even in a second gen, also a different bolt because of the shorter length. It makes sense to have to shim the frame horns.
Putting it back on last year the body would not sit on the front most mounts (mounts under the firewall). Looking in the Fisher manual (this is a 2 dr coupe), it appears the fronts and the next body mounts back (mounts just to the outside of the front seats) are different P/N's. They are the same diameter though and my repop mount kit shows them as being the same P/N's (can be mixed). Posting on TC, members spoke about turning down the ones next to the front seats a bit on theirs to get them to fit. It took them down to almost a half inch tall! Finally the body sat on the front mounts.
Put everything back on, mount the core support and go to put on the front fenders... The fenders hung about 1/2-1" max over the core support! Basicaly the firewall was up too high compared to the core support as I thought. I had to pull them down to mount them, shouldn't be like that I think.
Threw it on the winter project list....
Went last week and looked at my cousin's Lemans (72', same as my Chevelle) and took body mount measurements. It appears his front mount spaces the body 1" from the frame, go home and measure mine, within about 1/8" - 1/4"of his.
Lifted the body up a few inches tonight and looked to see if anything moved or caught, set it back down and the same measurement.
I am assuming one of a few things happened here, but am looking for suggestions:
1) Body sits too high on firewall mounts (then why did I have to turn down the mounts behind them as mentioned above?)
2) Body is tweaked, but everything sits level on the car, body sits square to the frame, and the doors lined properly when fit.
3) Core Support mount is too low (just thought of this as typing this post).
I am stumped and know I am going to have a good amount of time into test fitting to get this right, any suggestions?
My 70 Chevelle had 1 shim under the right side of the support too, when I replaced the rubber mounts a couple years ago.
Did you have the frame checked for square/level while the body was off ? It could have been tweaked too.
The frame horns can drop over an inch if on frame stands, especially if they are under the front body mount area.
Darn nice project you have going on there Mitch.
Boy am I glad I read this post, good to know when mine goes back together, BTW my core support had one shim on pass side and two on drivers side, solves that question! HMMMMMMMMMM....
Wish I had my '66 ready for that stage, I would "volunteer" it for a demo. Maybe we can do another "paint 101" in a month and shoot it.....
A fender alignment would actually be a nice how-to.
Also the bushing by the seat in the middle of the door is a little different, you have to modify it to get it to fit properly. The bolt is different, the washer is different , the bottom bushing, and top bushing are different. And as far as I know, it is not reproduced.
The reason for shimming the front horns, is it would be almost impossible to get those two appendages that stick out front to be perfectly level with each other, etc. Body is held in place mainly the the 4 bushings on each side. The rear frame rails bend so easily that they conform to the structure of the body when tightened up.
-- Edited by jim larson on Saturday 22nd of January 2011 07:43:29 AM