Car is still slower than... well it's slow. Traction limited and driver error are probably the biggest factors. BUT,
It's got enough power & traction to break stuff.
Things went well until run #6, and the (best guess) convertor let go. Sounds like a handful of nuts & bolts clanging around inside the bellhousing... consensus is possible stator or lockup clutch failure. All the gears are still there, and it does move under it's own power, no milkshake in the pan(s).
A BIG THANK YOU to my bestest buddy in the world Pushrod, who fired up the "Bambu-lance/CSI/FBI/Suburban", hooked up the stretcher, drove out there, and brought my azz home. (The guy wouldn't even let me toss enough $$$ at him to refill the dang "Lake Mead" sized tank!! - I owe him big time...)
Got it home & in the air and: - All the convertor bolts are in place - All the mounting lugs for the convertor are there - The flexplate is intact - There are ZERO leaks
Lost in the 60s said
May 13, 2012
Knowing none of our initial ideas is the issue pretty much leaves the tq as the culprit.
I didn't take the car off the trailer to see why mine was leaking. I just backed it all in the shed and repaired my neighbors dump truck.
I WAS happy with the way the day went until I loaded it back on the trailer and started strapping it down. I saw gear lube dripping steadily out of the transmission at the midplate seam. Couldn't see any cracks to account for the drip, so I'm hoping the bottom bolt just worked loose.
The first 2 runs were the best so far, just squeaking into the 13's with a 13.980 and 13.970. My reaction time needed work but by the time I managed to bring that down from .399 to .022-.028, the air had warmed and dried enough that the e/t slipped back to 14.05.
Lost in the 60s said
May 13, 2012
SShink wrote:
JD, I'm sure you'll figure it out quick and will have it on the road without delay!
I wish I could have made it, but too much going on. Planning on going next year as I have a performance mod or two in mind for this winter that might help the track times...
Mitch, that's still respectible. Did you use slicks?
Now.... we need some time slip info for the rest of the boys!!!
There's still lots of time to get there this year. 3 Muscle Car Days coming yet !!!
Yes, I have 26x8.5x15 drag slicks and they were biting well enough to bog the engine on launch with only 3:31 gears.
I offered John my slicks to see if he could get a better launch but in hindsight, it's probably good he didn't. Whatever broke may have grenaded and caused more damage.
Steve's wife was in the stands taking vids of the action. We will probably see them soon.....
-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Sunday 13th of May 2012 11:43:46 AM
SShink said
May 13, 2012
JD, I'm sure you'll figure it out quick and will have it on the road without delay!
I wish I could have made it, but too much going on. Planning on going next year as I have a performance mod or two in mind for this winter that might help the track times...
Mitch, that's still respectible. Did you use slicks?
Now.... we need some time slip info for the rest of the boys!!!
frank said
May 13, 2012
breakdowns happen thats why i like to wait till fall to do the strip. or you could kill your whole summer. start going in august then if it breaks i don't feel as bad.
Enganeer said
May 13, 2012
John,
If your rear end went south, I have one that you could swap parts over to keep you going.
Tony Hoffer said
May 13, 2012
Whatever it is its making a metallic random clunking noise.. it is rhythmic but not consistent.. It does this while idling in park and also under load...
My first thought was wrist pin.. But after hearing about the spin-hook situation I started thinking converter..
SteveS said
May 14, 2012
I had a pretty good day. Finally got in the 11's. Started out with a 12.08, ran a couple of 12.2's then inched closer 12.019, 12.071, 12.013 then got a 11.943.
There were only 3 cars in the Car Club eliminations. Me, Jim and Jordan from the Camaro Club. In the first round Jim ran against the Camaro and they both broke out, but Jim was a little worse. I got a bye run, and ran a 12.03 against my 11.94 dial in. I changed my dial in to 11.99 for the second round against Jordan and I broke out with a 11.95. Guess I shouldn't have changed it. I still would have lost because my reaction time was worse and Jordan was on his game, but it was a lot of fun.
Hopefully John & Mitch's trouble doesn't turn out to be serious.
I've got lots of video, I'll try to get through it and get it posted.
-- Edited by SteveS on Monday 14th of May 2012 07:52:10 AM
Bowtieman427 said
May 14, 2012
I had a slippery day could not hook at al couple times slipping in 1st to 2nd gear change too had to get off it. times were all over the place 11.943, 11.302, 11.680, 11.531, 11.947, 11.305. had a couple 0-60ft over 2 sec most were in the 1.7s which is NOT good. traps were 121.38-123.96 MPH.
Steve congrats on breaking into the 11s remember to take that boat anchor of a spare tire out of the trunk : )
Against Jordan I ran 11.304 dialed in 11.60 two runs just before that were 11.531 & 11.680. I figured I was getting slower, but know it ran quicker. Jordan was dialed in at 11.67 and he ran a 11.510 he was laughing as he seen me chasing him down hard caught up to him at the 1000ft mark....off the line I slipped all over.
Looks like I have to work on suspension as it hits so hard now with the converter update.
The track closed down 3-4 times. I swear they use a Zamboni to clean it. It seemed slow to take forever to get a run in at times.
I hope nothing serious with John's and Mitch's car. The part I love about our club Craig came out to pick John up that is amazing. Best people around.
My Crew cheif JJ elected to play Soccer instead (long story). I got home and right away he wants to know when are we going again and he does not want to miss it. Perhaps a Muscle Car day in July August Sept at RF or a trip to Cedar Falls.
Car Club day is sure a different event we had 4 Chevelles from our club and 1 from Camaro club. There were no other car clubs there. Most people at the event were racing for $$, trophy or High school.
It was sure FUN !!!!!!!!!!! Can not wait to see the videos.................HUGE thanks to Ramona taking the time to take all of them and the both of you for taking the time to sift through and load them.
SteveS said
May 15, 2012
Here are some videos. You'll have to let me know if we need some still shots for the newsletter or the events page. I can pull stills off the videos.
Click the box & arrow icon the the bottom right to see them full screen.
-- Edited by SteveS on Tuesday 15th of May 2012 11:12:03 AM
Derek69SS said
May 15, 2012
John, if you need a torque converter give me a call tonight...
I've got an EDGE 3000rpm stall/ lock-up converter for a 4L60e sitting on the shelf.
seagrams72 said
May 15, 2012
SShink wrote:
John, that's too bad. Although... you did mention something awhile ago about wanting to 'upgrade' to all the whizz bang options on an LS engine!
Time to come to AAA Salvage in Rosemount to pick up an LS engine for $500 or $600???
I am sorry for your loss...
If you are going to Dashboard's this weekend I can show you a cheap fuel injected LS swap, if it is not raining. more
-- Edited by seagrams72 on Tuesday 15th of May 2012 09:33:35 PM
Lost in the 60s said
May 16, 2012
Took the car off the trailer tonight and put it up on stands. ALL the mid-plate bolts were very loose, some a couple turns. I got them all very tight now and filled the trans again. I'm hoping the cases weren't able to shift around and damage the gaskets. It would be nice to not have it leak again.
I doubt John's issue will be as easily resolved.
John D said
May 16, 2012
Derek - thanks for the offer, but a 3K stall is a bit out of the range for the powertrain...
I've pulled the trigger on a rebuilt & upgraded 4L60e and new converter. Should arrive end of week. I figure the gearbox has 100K+ miles on it anyway, and it's EXACTLY the same amount of work to change just the converter alone... so why not do the gearbox as well.
John D said
May 16, 2012
Update...
The trigger has been un-pulled on the trans. Just for gits & shiggles, and to VERIFY the problem I unbolted the converter from the flexplate tonight.
After pulling the bolts, shoving the converter all the way back, and wiring it to not turn I fired it up. Not Good.
Lotsa banging & clanking going on deep in the engine. Tony may have been right about a broken piston - as the engine still holds oil pressure - and gets louder as it warms up.
It's gonna have to come out and have the pan removed for a look-see.
SShink said
May 16, 2012
John, that's too bad. Although... you did mention something awhile ago about wanting to 'upgrade' to all the whizz bang options on an LS engine!
Time to come to AAA Salvage in Rosemount to pick up an LS engine for $500 or $600???
Lost in the 60s said
May 16, 2012
John D wrote:
Update...
The trigger has been un-pulled on the trans. Just for gits & shiggles, and to VERIFY the problem I unbolted the converter from the flexplate tonight.
After pulling the bolts, shoving the converter all the way back, and wiring it to not turn I fired it up. Not Good.
Lotsa banging & clanking going on deep in the engine. Tony may have been right about a broken piston - as the engine still holds oil pressure - and gets louder as it warms up.
It's gonna have to come out and have the pan removed for a look-see.
OUCH....sorry to hear that. It isn't like anything I've ever heard in an engine. Be intersating to hear what it is. Do you need an engine hoist ?
Tim H said
May 16, 2012
Damn John that really sucks. I hope it turns out to be something that is fixable without a major rebuild and no block damage. That engine really looked good in your elky. You did such a nice job shoe horning it in there and making it look like it belongs.
Tim H said
May 16, 2012
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Took the car off the trailer tonight and put it up on stands. ALL the mid-plate bolts were very loose, some a couple turns. I got them all very tight now and filled the trans again. I'm hoping the cases weren't able to shift around and damage the gaskets. It would be nice to not have it leak again.
I doubt John's issue will be as easily resolved.
I hope that gets it Mitch. Funny how those bolts get themselves loose like that but it happens.
SteveS said
May 16, 2012
Sorry to hear that John, hopefully it's not completely fatal. If you do go the LS route, I've got lots of books & info from doing mine. With your ingenuity I'd like to see what you could do with an LS motor, could end up with lots of cool inventions the rest of us could incorporate.
Tony Hoffer said
May 16, 2012
John..I would pull the valve covers and check the valvtrain..also pull all the spark plugs and look for signs of detonation.
Bowtieman427 said
May 16, 2012
John, I am so sorrry to hear that : ( Perhaps it is just a loose floppy rocker there is always hope.
Lost in the 60s said
May 16, 2012
Pulling the covers is a good idea. It just didn't sound deep enough to be a bearing or pin, but the engine also seemed to run very smooth for a seriously loose rocker.
John D said
May 16, 2012
Yeah, I'm going to dig into it a little tonight...
It's wierd - It fires right up (like normal), idles down, has 30+ lbs. oil pressure (cold, drops a bit when warm), and runs SMOOTH!... Then this knocking starts up, seemingly focused near the rear 1/2 of the engine.
Before going total berzerk, I'll pull the covers, and check things out. Pulling the plugs is easily said, but if you think a BB is tough w/ headers.... but they'll come out too and see if there's any metal transfer.
I can have the engine/trans dangling from a chain in about 3 hours (I've got a hoist, thanks!) - but that's after about 10 hours of getting all the other cr*p out of the way!! I did build the thing to be serviceable, but "stuff" is packed/crammed into every corner.
Enganeer said
May 17, 2012
Hmm, interesting symptoms. Oil pres still good when the knocking occurs? Could you have a lifter going bad that gets gets obstructed and collapses? Check the distributor gear also.
John D said
May 17, 2012
Just in from the shop... pulled both VC's and all the valvetrain is intact. Pushrods arent' bent, still twirl, rockers are intact, and peeking through the drainback holes the lifters are in their holes. The GD thing just fires up & runs (zing's really fast without the converter connected!) but something is just waiting to fail.
OP doesn't fluctuate. I'm still bending towards a piston skirt or wrist-pin boss... something is loose/not happy in there!... impending doom.
SShink said
May 17, 2012
John D wrote:
I'm still bending towards a piston skirt or wrist-pin boss... something is loose/not happy in there!... impending doom.
Or as your signature says...
"Where's the Kaboom?? There was supposed to be an Earth shattering KABOOM!!!"
Lost in the 60s said
May 17, 2012
John D wrote:
Just in from the shop... pulled both VC's and all the valvetrain is intact. Pushrods arent' bent, still twirl, rockers are intact, and peeking through the drainback holes the lifters are in their holes. The GD thing just fires up & runs (zing's really fast without the converter connected!) but something is just waiting to fail.
OP doesn't fluctuate. I'm still bending towards a piston skirt or wrist-pin boss... something is loose/not happy in there!... impending doom.
Well if that's the way it wants to be.....YANK IT....
Darn good thing you didn't assume it was the converter and try to drive it home.
John D said
May 17, 2012
I halfway wish it was a "Kaboom"!... at least I'd know what broke!! Everything is now up to speculation and a lot of hours getting to the result.
Chris R said
May 17, 2012
Put it back together and take it out to flog the hell out of it. That aughta get you a nice kaboom.
John D said
May 17, 2012
It still is together... 3 converter bolts from drivable...
Tell you what - why don't we find your oil consumption problem and my knocking problem on 169 @ CLR together???
bowtie said
May 17, 2012
Chris R wrote:
Put it back together and take it out to flog the hell out of it. That aughta get you a nice kaboom.
Who's signature line on TC said if it ain't broke, give me a minute? Wasn't it Chris R?
Chris R said
May 17, 2012
John D wrote:
It still is together... 3 converter bolts from drivable...
Tell you what - why don't we find your oil consumption problem and my knocking problem on 169 @ CLR together???
You got me all tempted now. Being a sort of broke college student leaves me with little car money. Blowing up a BBC would put me further in the hole.
bowtie wrote:
Chris R wrote:
Put it back together and take it out to flog the hell out of it. That aughta get you a nice kaboom.
Who's signature line on TC said if it ain't broke, give me a minute? Wasn't it Chris R?
That would be correct. I proved it already with this car. Swapped to a set of 781 heads not realizing at the time they arent the best with the pistons I have and actually lost a point in compression and some pretty good oil consumption problems. Ran them for one season and swapped back to the fresh rebuilt stock heads after having them rebuilt but it was too late. Plan now is to pull engine and hone cylinders and replace the rings. Maybe have the heads inspected to be sure as well to make sure they are still ok.
Car is still slower than... well it's slow. Traction limited and driver error are probably the biggest factors. BUT,
It's got enough power & traction to break stuff.
Things went well until run #6, and the (best guess) convertor let go. Sounds like a handful of nuts & bolts clanging around inside the bellhousing... consensus is possible stator or lockup clutch failure.
All the gears are still there, and it does move under it's own power, no milkshake in the pan(s).
A BIG THANK YOU to my bestest buddy in the world Pushrod, who fired up the "Bambu-lance/CSI/FBI/Suburban", hooked up the stretcher, drove out there, and brought my azz home. (The guy wouldn't even let me toss enough $$$ at him to refill the dang "Lake Mead" sized tank!! - I owe him big time...)
Got it home & in the air and:
- All the convertor bolts are in place
- All the mounting lugs for the convertor are there
- The flexplate is intact
- There are ZERO leaks
Knowing none of our initial ideas is the issue pretty much leaves the tq as the culprit.
I didn't take the car off the trailer to see why mine was leaking. I just backed it all in the shed and repaired my neighbors dump truck.
I WAS happy with the way the day went until I loaded it back on the trailer and started strapping it down. I saw gear lube dripping steadily out of the transmission at the midplate seam. Couldn't see any cracks to account for the drip, so I'm hoping the bottom bolt just worked loose.
The first 2 runs were the best so far, just squeaking into the 13's with a 13.980 and 13.970. My reaction time needed work but by the time I managed to bring that down from .399 to .022-.028, the air had warmed and dried enough that the e/t slipped back to 14.05.
-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Sunday 13th of May 2012 11:43:46 AM
JD, I'm sure you'll figure it out quick and will have it on the road without delay!
I wish I could have made it, but too much going on. Planning on going next year as I have a performance mod or two in mind for this winter that might help the track times...
Mitch, that's still respectible. Did you use slicks?
Now.... we need some time slip info for the rest of the boys!!!
If your rear end went south, I have one that you could swap parts over to keep you going.
My first thought was wrist pin.. But after hearing about the spin-hook situation I started thinking converter..
I had a pretty good day. Finally got in the 11's. Started out with a 12.08, ran a couple of 12.2's then inched closer 12.019, 12.071, 12.013 then got a 11.943.
There were only 3 cars in the Car Club eliminations. Me, Jim and Jordan from the Camaro Club. In the first round Jim ran against the Camaro and they both broke out, but Jim was a little worse. I got a bye run, and ran a 12.03 against my 11.94 dial in. I changed my dial in to 11.99 for the second round against Jordan and I broke out with a 11.95.
Guess I shouldn't have changed it. I still would have lost because my reaction time was worse and Jordan was on his game, but it was a lot of fun.
Hopefully John & Mitch's trouble doesn't turn out to be serious.
I've got lots of video, I'll try to get through it and get it posted.
-- Edited by SteveS on Monday 14th of May 2012 07:52:10 AM
traps were 121.38-123.96 MPH.
Steve congrats on breaking into the 11s remember to take that boat anchor of a spare tire out of the trunk : )
Against Jordan I ran 11.304 dialed in 11.60 two runs just before that were 11.531 & 11.680. I figured I was getting slower, but know it ran quicker. Jordan was dialed in at 11.67 and he ran a 11.510 he was laughing as he seen me chasing him down hard caught up to him at the 1000ft mark....off the line I slipped all over.
Looks like I have to work on suspension as it hits so hard now with the converter update.
The track closed down 3-4 times. I swear they use a Zamboni to clean it. It seemed slow to take forever to get a run in at times.
I hope nothing serious with John's and Mitch's car. The part I love about our club Craig came out to pick John up that is amazing. Best people around.
My Crew cheif JJ elected to play Soccer instead (long story). I got home and right away he wants to know when are we going again and he does not want to miss it. Perhaps a Muscle Car day in July August Sept at RF or a trip to Cedar Falls.
Car Club day is sure a different event we had 4 Chevelles from our club and 1 from Camaro club. There were no other car clubs there. Most people at the event were racing for $$, trophy or High school.
It was sure FUN !!!!!!!!!!!
Can not wait to see the videos.................HUGE thanks to Ramona taking the time to take all of them and the both of you for taking the time to sift through and load them.
Here are some videos. You'll have to let me know if we need some still shots for the newsletter or the events page. I can pull stills off the videos.
Click the box & arrow icon the the bottom right to see them full screen.
Rock Falls Club Day 2012
-- Edited by SteveS on Tuesday 15th of May 2012 11:12:03 AM
I've got an EDGE 3000rpm stall/ lock-up converter for a 4L60e sitting on the shelf.
I am sorry for your loss...
If you are going to Dashboard's this weekend I can show you a cheap fuel injected LS swap, if it is not raining.
more
-- Edited by seagrams72 on Tuesday 15th of May 2012 09:33:35 PM
Took the car off the trailer tonight and put it up on stands. ALL the mid-plate bolts were very loose, some a couple turns. I got them all very tight now and filled the trans again. I'm hoping the cases weren't able to shift around and damage the gaskets. It would be nice to not have it leak again.
I doubt John's issue will be as easily resolved.
I've pulled the trigger on a rebuilt & upgraded 4L60e and new converter. Should arrive end of week. I figure the gearbox has 100K+ miles on it anyway, and it's EXACTLY the same amount of work to change just the converter alone... so why not do the gearbox as well.
The trigger has been un-pulled on the trans. Just for gits & shiggles, and to VERIFY the problem I unbolted the converter from the flexplate tonight.
After pulling the bolts, shoving the converter all the way back, and wiring it to not turn I fired it up. Not Good.
Lotsa banging & clanking going on deep in the engine. Tony may have been right about a broken piston - as the engine still holds oil pressure - and gets louder as it warms up.
It's gonna have to come out and have the pan removed for a look-see.
John, that's too bad. Although... you did mention something awhile ago about wanting to 'upgrade' to all the whizz bang options on an LS engine!
Time to come to AAA Salvage in Rosemount to pick up an LS engine for $500 or $600???
I hope that gets it Mitch. Funny how those bolts get themselves loose like that but it happens.
Sorry to hear that John, hopefully it's not completely fatal. If you do go the LS route, I've got lots of books & info from doing mine. With your ingenuity I'd like to see what you could do with an LS motor, could end up with lots of cool inventions the rest of us could incorporate.
Pulling the covers is a good idea. It just didn't sound deep enough to be a bearing or pin, but the engine also seemed to run very smooth for a seriously loose rocker.
It's wierd - It fires right up (like normal), idles down, has 30+ lbs. oil pressure (cold, drops a bit when warm), and runs SMOOTH!... Then this knocking starts up, seemingly focused near the rear 1/2 of the engine.
Before going total berzerk, I'll pull the covers, and check things out. Pulling the plugs is easily said, but if you think a BB is tough w/ headers.... but they'll come out too and see if there's any metal transfer.
I can have the engine/trans dangling from a chain in about 3 hours (I've got a hoist, thanks!) - but that's after about 10 hours of getting all the other cr*p out of the way!! I did build the thing to be serviceable, but "stuff" is packed/crammed into every corner.
OP doesn't fluctuate. I'm still bending towards a piston skirt or wrist-pin boss... something is loose/not happy in there!... impending doom.
Or as your signature says...
"Where's the Kaboom?? There was supposed to be an Earth shattering KABOOM!!!"
Well if that's the way it wants to be.....YANK IT....
Darn good thing you didn't assume it was the converter and try to drive it home.
Put it back together and take it out to flog the hell out of it. That aughta get you a nice kaboom.
It still is together... 3 converter bolts from drivable...
Tell you what - why don't we find your oil consumption problem and my knocking problem on 169 @ CLR together???
Who's signature line on TC said if it ain't broke, give me a minute? Wasn't it Chris R?
That would be correct. I proved it already with this car. Swapped to a set of 781 heads not realizing at the time they arent the best with the pistons I have and actually lost a point in compression and some pretty good oil consumption problems. Ran them for one season and swapped back to the fresh rebuilt stock heads after having them rebuilt but it was too late. Plan now is to pull engine and hone cylinders and replace the rings. Maybe have the heads inspected to be sure as well to make sure they are still ok.