I am already trying to set aside some cash so I can bring my car down to him and have the trans sorted out. Never was 100% happy with it when it was first done back in about 2001. 2-3 WOT is a little slippery and 3-4 WOT is not impressive, though I rarely get to do it......
SShink said
Jan 12, 2011
bowtie wrote:
I am already trying to set aside some cash so I can bring my car down to him and have the trans sorted out. Never was 100% happy with it when it was first done back in about 2001. 2-3 WOT is a little slippery and 3-4 WOT is not impressive, though I rarely get to do it......
Bryan, let me know when you bring it down and you can come over to the 'cave' for a cold one or two if you have to leave it with John. I'm less than a mile from Master Trans.
bowtie said
Jan 12, 2011
sounds like a plan
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 12, 2011
Wonder why he doesn't want the converter to lock up. That's part of the process that gets the rpm down on the highway with the 4.11 gears....
SShink said
Jan 13, 2011
Lost in the 60s wrote:
Wonder why he doesn't want the converter to lock up. That's part of the process that gets the rpm down on the highway with the 4.11 gears....
It will still have the benefit of the 0.67 ratio 4th gear overdrive to lower the highway rpms with a non-lockup converter.
In my simple world... what this means is that below 2400 rpm the converter clutch will still slip some until it gets to that rpm and then it's functionally locked for full power transfer. With the electronic 'lockup' converters they use an electronic circuit to determine when to have a locked up condition on the converter.
The non-electronic lockup is what was used many years prior to the electronic lock-ups, so the technology works. This setup should be pretty good because at 65 mph, the calculators show that I will be running at 2276 rpm which is just about perfect for full lockup. At 60 mph I'll be at 2100 rpm and at 70 I'll be at 2450 which is still 350rpm lower than a TH350 with 3.08 gears!!! And that's all with running a 26.5" tall rear tire, which is not all that tall (255/60/15)
And all this is WAY better than the 3500 rpm this car did at 65 mph with the 4.11's and TH400!!! I 'think' this combination with the really deep gears, better shift spacing on the 200-4R, and OD should make this a really fun combo to drive on the street and highway.
I'm sure I've oversimplified the non-lockup vs. lockup difference description and people with more trans knowledge will jump in.
-- Edited by SShink on Thursday 13th of January 2011 12:23:43 PM
-- Edited by SShink on Thursday 13th of January 2011 1217 PM
Derek69SS said
Jan 13, 2011
SShink wrote:at 65 mph, the calculators show that I will be running at 2276 rpm which is just about perfect for full lockup. At 60 mph I'll be at 2100 rpm and at 70 I'll be at 2450 which is still 350rpm lower than a TH350 with 3.08 gears!!!
Why in the heck are you planning to drive so slow?
I'm gearing mine for 80.
SShink said
Jan 13, 2011
Derek69SS wrote:
SShink wrote:at 65 mph, the calculators show that I will be running at 2276 rpm which is just about perfect for full lockup. At 60 mph I'll be at 2100 rpm and at 70 I'll be at 2450 which is still 350rpm lower than a TH350 with 3.08 gears!!!
Why in the heck are you planning to drive so slow?
I'm gearing mine for 80.
Ok, ok. How's this instead... let's say I'm running the 1/4 mile and I go through the traps at 105 mph (is that better? ) I'll only be running 3700 instead of 5600 rpm (assuming I shift into 4th gear but would probably hold it in 3rd)!
Besides, Momma don't like the sound of a screaming big block going down the highway. I get comments like 'Is this thing going to blow up?' or 'Are we going to get there without breaking down?'
Derek69SS said
Jan 13, 2011
That's better. :D
SShink said
Jan 13, 2011
Derek69SS wrote:
That's better. :D
Good. You're right... I was starting to sound like one of those 'old' guys that's all about comfort and quiet rides (aka streetrodders-no offense to any on the forum ). Thanks for calling me on it.
John D said
Jan 13, 2011
Your description of the converter process is pretty darn good, but here's a little expansion for the benefit of others...
A normal converter is like two fans in a tube pointed at eachother. Switch one on and eventually the other will start to spin. The media is air. Same thing in a converter other than the medium is a viscous fluid. - Eventually the "drive" fan will be spinning fast enough that the fluid can't slip by/through the "driven" fan anymore, and the two of them will be (for practical purposes) locked together by a fluid coupling, and turning the same speed. Up until this point of "lockup" there is torque multiplication due to the blade shape and viscous properties of the fluid. - There will never be 100% power transfer because there is no mechanical link between the two fans - there will be some lost energy.
A lockup converter is exactly the same as a "normal" converter, but has a hydraulically operated clutch inside it. A disc of friction material on one "fan", and a flywheel surface on the other "fan". There is an electric solenoid in the valve body that allows/denies hydraulic fluid pressure to engage this clutch. - At a time deemed proper by the engine computer, rpm, or other inputs the system will apply pressure to this circuit and the converter will be mechanically locked (the two fans mechanically connected). Exactly like a traditional clutch on a manual gearbox car. There is no slippage - 100% of engine power is delivered to the transmission.
Stall Speed, or lockup speed on a traditional converter is the rpm when the turbine & impeller (the two fans) achieve that point of "viscous coupling" and essential are turning at the same speed and there is no torque multiplication.
There's more to this (and more parts inside a converter) but this is a "101" explanation. This guy is more eloquent... Converter 101+
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 13, 2011
SShink wrote:Besides, Momma don't like the sound of a screaming big block going down the highway. I get comments like 'Is this thing going to blow up?' or 'Are we going to get there without breaking down?' When I first got my Camaro streetable a few years back it took a lot of coaxing to get my wife in the first time and all I heard was "Are you sure we're going to get there ?? Do you have your cell phone with in case we break down ?? etc. etc. etc..... Now she's fairly confidant about the Camaro but she took one look at the '66 when it got here with no interior and a gapping hole in the firewall and exclaimed "I'm NOT riding anywhere in that until you fix it". So, in the shop it went....
SShink said
Jan 13, 2011
John D wrote:
Your description of the converter process is pretty darn good, but here's a little expansion for the benefit of others...
Thank you 'Mr. Science'.
I knew I was leaving something out.
Dave Seitz said
Jan 13, 2011
SShink wrote:
John D wrote:
Your description of the converter process is pretty darn good, but here's a little expansion for the benefit of others...
Thank you 'Mr. Science'.
I knew I was leaving something out.
I thought it was Mr. Wizard or Mr. Peabody?
John D said
Jan 13, 2011
Now, now guys...
Mr. Peabody was the doggy who controlled the "Way-Back Machine" with Sherman...
"Mr. Wizard" was a guy in the '50s who hosted a TV show and authored some practical science books for kids, kinda like the "Beakman" series now.
The moniker "Mr. Wizard" has a special meaning to me. It was the nickname my step-father used to call me when an unusual problem needed a practical and economical solution. He or his friends (of varying levels of Dr. of, PHD., whatever) would be stumped on something and then he'd call me. I'd usually be able to come up with a solution involving the minimum of work and material, with the spec'd result.
I know a little bit about a lot of things... none of which has made me rich.
The non-electronic lockup is what was used many years prior to the electronic lock-ups, so the technology works. This setup should be pretty good because at 65 mph, the calculators show that I will be running at 2276 rpm which is just about perfect for full lockup. At 60 mph I'll be at 2100 rpm and at 70 I'll be at 2450 which is still 350rpm lower than a TH350 with 3.08 gears!!! And that's all with running a 26.5" tall rear tire, which is not all that tall (255/60/15)
I was thinking about putting lockup in my 200, but I am not sure. What sucks is I gotta good deal on an aftermarket 200 convertor last fall. He claimed it had lockup capabilities, but for the price it didn't matter. Now having it home I am thinking about adding lockup, but don't know if the convertor will support it or not. The only way I know of how to find out is to cut it open, then there goes my good deal on a good convertor. It is B&M Blue, but I cannot find a valid p/n. I think the stall is 3000 or 3200.
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 14, 2011
seagrams72 wrote:SShink wrote:The non-electronic lockup is what was used many years prior to the electronic lock-ups, so the technology works. This setup should be pretty good because at 65 mph, the calculators show that I will be running at 2276 rpm which is just about perfect for full lockup. At 60 mph I'll be at 2100 rpm and at 70 I'll be at 2450 which is still 350rpm lower than a TH350 with 3.08 gears!!! And that's all with running a 26.5" tall rear tire, which is not all that tall (255/60/15) I was thinking about putting lockup in my 200, but I am not sure. What sucks is I gotta good deal on an aftermarket 200 convertor last fall. He claimed it had lockup capabilities, but for the price it didn't matter. Now having it home I am thinking about adding lockup, but don't know if the convertor will support it or not. The only way I know of how to find out is to cut it open, then there goes my good deal on a good convertor. It is B&M Blue, but I cannot find a valid p/n. I think the stall is 3000 or 3200.
Sounds like another question for J Whiz... If it has to receive an electronic signal to lock, it should have a path for the signal to follow. Obviously can't be a wire, so it must be a pad for a contact to ride on or an isolated ring on the shaft spline somewhere ?See if the converter has the path and put current to it. Listen for the clutch to engage ? Am I close Mr. Whiz ?
SShink said
Jan 14, 2011
John D wrote:
I know a little bit about a lot of things... none of which has made me rich.
Ahh yes... I think a lot of us resemble that remark as described with 'Jack of all trades... Master of none!'
Or, there's always the 'Knows enough to be dangerous!'
SShink said
Jan 14, 2011
seagrams72 wrote:
I was thinking about putting lockup in my 200, but I am not sure. What sucks is I gotta good deal on an aftermarket 200 convertor last fall. He claimed it had lockup capabilities, but for the price it didn't matter. Now having it home I am thinking about adding lockup, but don't know if the convertor will support it or not. The only way I know of how to find out is to cut it open, then there goes my good deal on a good convertor. It is B&M Blue, but I cannot find a valid p/n. I think the stall is 3000 or 3200.
Andy, I'd stop over or give John at Master Trans in Rosemount (Hwy 3 and CR 42) and I'm sure he'd talk you through it. He's a cool guy and a muscle car guy too!
Or, if you can wait until March/April I can take you for a ride and see if you like the non-lockup 200-4R version in my '72.
-- Edited by SShink on Friday 14th of January 2011 0854 AM
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 14, 2011
SShink wrote:
John D wrote:
I know a little bit about a lot of things... none of which has made me rich.
Ahh yes... I think a lot of us resemble that remark as described with 'Jack of all trades... Master of none!'
Or, there's always the 'Knows enough to be dangerous!'
That's how I describe myself. I know just enough about a lot of things to be dangerous, especially electricity...
And it's very obvious none of what I know or do has made me rich either.....
John D said
Jan 14, 2011
If it has to receive an electronic signal to lock, it should have a path for the signal to follow. Obviously can't be a wire, so it must be a pad for a contact to ride on or an isolated ring on the shaft spline somewhere ?See if the converter has the path and put current to it. Listen for the clutch to engage ? Am I close Mr. Whiz ?
Nope... The locking inside the converter (clutch apply/release) is done hydraulically. The solenoid in the pan enables/disables a pressure circuit routed up through the input shaft. This fluid circuit applies/releases the clutch in the converter. The electrics are all in the pan.
Stan - talk to your trans guy about enabling lockup. It's not very difficult to wire up, requiring an on/off switch, and a different brakelight switch.
bowtie said
Jan 14, 2011
SShink wrote:
Derek69SS wrote:
I'll only be running 3700 instead of 5600 rpm (assuming I shift into 4th gear but would probably hold it in 3rd)!
I never got to 4th at Rock Falls last year, except for my very first run which was mostly shaking my cobwebs out (of m head).
My old Camaro had 4:11s and 255/60R15s. I drove it from st peter to burnsville and back quite a bit when I was going to college. No radio and gear whine....... not fun.
seagrams72 said
Jan 14, 2011
John D wrote:
Nope... The locking inside the converter (clutch apply/release) is done hydraulically. The solenoid in the pan enables/disables a pressure circuit routed up through the input shaft. This fluid circuit applies/releases the clutch in the converter. The electrics are all in the pan.
True, that is were identifying a lockup vs. nonlockup is difficult. The only benefit I would see is on the freeway. B&M, TCI, and the list goes on sells lockup kits for the 200 for about $100 or less. You can do it in the car by dropping the pan. Maybe an option when it is time for a fluid change Stan?
I believe it is merely an economy option, but I heard it helps with heat build up (keeping it down) while cruising in 4th on the freeway.
To combat heat build up i am running a large auxilary cooler up front, I'm not too big into the auto radiators with the tranny cooler integrated unless you have a newer aluminum unit. I still don't think they cool as well as the auxilary. Or you can use both!
Otherwise, what all did Master do to the trans? I am running a factory 87' with a reverse manual valvebody and a Sonnax servo. I think it has been gone through once because it was clean when I cracked the seal on the pan last summer. Doing a little research, some bare bones options to fix some weak links are a hardened stator and an upgraded second gear band.
-- Edited by seagrams72 on Friday 14th of January 2011 0635 PM
SShink said
Jan 14, 2011
seagrams72 wrote:
True, that is were identifying a lockup vs. nonlockup is difficult. The only benefit I would see is on the freeway. B&M, TCI, and the list goes on sells lockup kits for the 200 for about $100 or less. You can do it in the car by dropping the pan. Maybe an option when it is time for a fluid change Stan?
I believe it is merely an economy option, but I heard it helps with heat build up (keeping it down) while cruising in 4th on the freeway.
To combat heat build up i am running a large auxilary cooler up front, I'm not too big into the auto radiators with the tranny cooler integrated unless you have a newer aluminum unit. I still don't think they cool as well as the auxilary. Or you can use both!
Otherwise, what all did Master do to the trans? I am running a factory 87' with a reverse manual valvebody and a Sonnax servo. I think it has been gone through once because it was clean when I cracked the seal on the pan last summer. Doing a little research, some bare bones options to fix some weak links are a hardened stator and an upgraded second gear band.
-- Edited by seagrams72 on Friday 14th of January 2011 0635 PM
Andy, I talked to Master Trans about the lockup and he just didn't think it would make that much difference in a street car. I will need to drive it to see how I really like it (or not).
I also asked about an external trans cooler, and he said that with the 4 core BBC radiator it wouldn't need the external one. I'm going to try it with just the rad cooler and see how it works.
Here's the best I can describe what they did:
-Heat treated input drum (needed to strengthen it up to 500 hp) -Shift kit -Roller sprag low clutch -Valve kit 700-R4
SShink said
Jan 24, 2011
Picked up the heads, cam, lifters, and gasket set tonight!!!
Hope to take the engine from a short block to a long block this weekend.
Would like to dyno it in the next couple of weeks if all works out...
SWEET!!!! Can't wait to see what kinda numbers it pulls. Don't forget the brake in additive for the new cam.
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 24, 2011
What did they say about the rockers ? You gonna go with the stamped ?
SShink said
Jan 24, 2011
67ss wrote:
SWEET!!!! Can't wait to see what kinda numbers it pulls. Don't forget the brake in additive for the new cam.
Randy at Competition Engines gave me a bottle of the additive along with some assembly lube for the cam lobes and lifter bottoms. He was really cool to work with, answered ALL my questions, and will help me line up the dyno next door to his shop. I highly recommend working with him.
SShink said
Jan 24, 2011
Lost in the 60s wrote:
What did they say about the rockers ? You gonna go with the stamped ?
He said that they were Crane rockers and would be fine to re-use. He wasn't too keen on the 2 piece pushrods though as he said they could come apart.
He said I wouldn't lose anything with a motor around 400 hp by going with the stock rocker arms, so that's what I'm going to do for reliability and ease of repair.
SShink said
Jan 30, 2011
Made some MAJOR progress this weekend on the engine!!!
Media blasted misc. parts/intake manifold at John D.'s yesterday, then JD, Kevin (Dashboard), Craig (Pushrod, and Tom (Gearlube) came over today and we took it from a short block to a long block.
Here's what we accomplished:
-Rear main seal R/R -Much metal working done on the timing chain cover, oil pan, and misc. parts to make them flat enough for a granite surface table! -Installed new cam & timing chain -Installed oil pan gasket/pan & timing chain cover -Installed freshly rebuilt heads -Installed valve train and lashed same -Pre-lubed the engine
That's where we stopped, so the pics with the valve covers, intake, carb, air cleaner are all mockups.
The exhaust manifolds are just mocked up for now but turned out great (thanks Frank)!
The next week will be spent touching up paint on the engine, installing the intake manifold, painting & installing some misc. parts.
I hope to take it to the dyno in the next week or three (have a week of vacation in a warmer place in the middle of that).
Thanks guys for all your help!!!!!
-- Edited by SShink on Sunday 30th of January 2011 0714 PM
Looks REALLY nice, Stan. You must be very excited....
Bowtieman427 said
Jan 31, 2011
Looks real nice.....that H280 cam should wake that 402 up...Since you had it apart adn it may have been rebuilt at one time did you mic the cylinders to see if it was bored out ? What CR you think you will be at ? may have missed it but looks like the heads are open chambers ovals 781's ?
OscarZ said
Jan 31, 2011
Looks great Stan! Wish the SMC (Shinker Man Cave) was closer so I could have attended... Between you being the Pres and your motor we could refer to your garage as the Oval Head Office!
-- Edited by OscarZ on Monday 31st of January 2011 08:48:05 AM
SShink said
Jan 31, 2011
Bowtieman427 wrote:
Looks real nice.....that H280 cam should wake that 402 up...Since you had it apart adn it may have been rebuilt at one time did you mic the cylinders to see if it was bored out ? What CR you think you will be at ? may have missed it but looks like the heads are open chambers ovals 781's ?
Jim, it's been bored 0.030 over (the tops of the pistons even say 0.30) and the cross hatching was still very good in the cylinders, so we are guessing in the last 10K miles or so.
The heads are the smaller oval port 3993820's that are original to this 402 engine. I've heard they aren't the best oval ports, but flow pretty good for the smaller ones.
Not sure what the compression ration is. Maybe 9 or 9.5:1?
Looks great Stan! Wish the SMC (Shinker Man Cave) was closer so I could have attended... Between you being the Pres and your motor we could refer to your garage as the Oval Head Office!
Thanks Mike. I hope it runs great too!
Anyone from the club is welcome to come to the 'SMC'. I just wish folks were closer together, but I understand too. I may try to have an 'open house' this spring or summer some weekend so that members could drive over and we can have an informal gathering. No burnouts when leaving my place like past events though... my neighbors would string me from the highest tree!!!
Lost in the 60s said
Jan 31, 2011
SShink wrote:
Thanks Mike. I hope it runs great too!
Anyone from the club is welcome to come to the 'SMC'. I just wish folks were closer together, but I understand too. I may try to have an 'open house' this spring or summer some weekend so that members could drive over and we can have an informal gathering. No burnouts when leaving my place like past events though... my neighbors would string me from the highest tree!!!
I would be willing to have meetings here too but I'm the neighborhood cop against the teenagers and their friends racing thru here. It wouldn't be pretty if I had a bunch of hot muscle cars engaging in that sort of behavior.
67ss said
Jan 31, 2011
I promise I'll behave.
bowtie said
Jan 31, 2011
uh-huh, riiiiight.
I could prove you wrong, but there's too many of mine covering yours up.
oooh
oooh
oooh
your's are the SKINNY tire marks!!!!!
seagrams72 said
Jan 31, 2011
SShink wrote:
No burnouts when leaving my place like past events though... my neighbors would string me from the highest tree!!!
Usually they are hard to hide when they are right in front of your house or well marks leaving your driveway is basically being caught red handed. Everyone is saving their bias ply's for next time.
Good thing the SMC session went well, I was right by your place at UPull at the time. I'm getting my 200-4r parts Wednesday so I will be catching up.
-- Edited by seagrams72 on Monday 31st of January 2011 0932 PM
SShink said
Feb 22, 2011
Progress has been going a little slow due to vacation and other life things going on. But, the engine is just about ready to go the dyno (hopefully in the next 2 weeks). The engine has made it from the stand to the cradle to be transported to/from the dyno.
I picked up the parts that were powder coated tonight (pulleys, fan, radiator cover, alternator brackets) from SE Custom Powder Coating in Savage and they look great.
Planning on rebuilding the Edelbrock 750 cfm carb this weekend and need to get on the stick ordering the parts needed to install the engine/trans. I'm also going to clean the engine bay and hopefully get a couple of coats of paint on this weekend as well.
That counter will be at less than 2.5 months left tomorrow, so I got's to get going!
Stan,
Probably saw this too late, and it looks like you bought the converter already....
There is a huge difference between locking the torque converter and not locking it. I have a 200-4r and it is literally like an additional gear. While the converter is locked it drives like a manual transmission.
I would highly recommend using the lockup feature, it is a huge benefit of this style trans. When the converter is locked, it also changes the flow path of the oil, greatly effecting internal lubrication and cooling. I would hope that when your trans builder "set it up for non-lockup" he was refering to changing the oil path in 4th gear to compensate for this.
The lockup can be as simple as a toggle switch, or automatic with a 4th gear pressure switch, or as complicated as how I have it. (vacuum swithes, brake switch, electronic speed controls, delay valves, multiple modes for racing)
You must put a trans temp gauge in also and monitor your temps. I'm sure your builder will help you set up the TV system, you MUST do it with a pressure gauge, and it is the most critical part of installation. The TV made easy kit is a bit finickey, and will most likely require dropping the pan a couple times. Be sure to use the correct TV plunger spring with the kit, as the normal spring will be too short to build pressure correctly. I have never gotten the spring they supply to work without the addition of spacers, which require some disassembly to install. If set up incorrectly, ie the spool doesn't allow the correct pressure ramp up, you run the risk of burning the bands in a few short miles.
Good luck.
SShink said
Feb 25, 2011
Winston Wolf wrote:
Stan,
Probably saw this too late, and it looks like you bought the converter already....
There is a huge difference between locking the torque converter and not locking it. I have a 200-4r and it is literally like an additional gear. While the converter is locked it drives like a manual transmission.
I would highly recommend using the lockup feature, it is a huge benefit of this style trans. When the converter is locked, it also changes the flow path of the oil, greatly effecting internal lubrication and cooling. I would hope that when your trans builder "set it up for non-lockup" he was refering to changing the oil path in 4th gear to compensate for this.
The lockup can be as simple as a toggle switch, or automatic with a 4th gear pressure switch, or as complicated as how I have it. (vacuum swithes, brake switch, electronic speed controls, delay valves, multiple modes for racing)
You must put a trans temp gauge in also and monitor your temps. I'm sure your builder will help you set up the TV system, you MUST do it with a pressure gauge, and it is the most critical part of installation. The TV made easy kit is a bit finickey, and will most likely require dropping the pan a couple times. Be sure to use the correct TV plunger spring with the kit, as the normal spring will be too short to build pressure correctly. I have never gotten the spring they supply to work without the addition of spacers, which require some disassembly to install. If set up incorrectly, ie the spool doesn't allow the correct pressure ramp up, you run the risk of burning the bands in a few short miles.
Good luck.
Thanks Winston for the feedback.
Maybe I confused people by saying it's a 'non-lockup convertor'. It does lock up but it's done dynamically instead of electronically. Maybe that makes sense?
I trust the trans builder as he's got a great reputation and yes, I'm going to instll the EZ kit and then drive it 1/2 mile over to his shop. I'll have Craig S. (Pushrod) and John D. come over to help with that part because they set up Craig's 200-4R from Bowtie Overdrives.
You're right that they used a trans pressure gauge to set everything up. I'll get it over to Master Trans and let them go through it and check the pressures before driving it.
What is your driveline setup with the 200-4R? What rear gear ratio do you have and what rpm are you running at 65 mph?
Winston Wolf said
Feb 26, 2011
I would assume then, that what the guy did is put in a 4th gear pressure switch. You would just wire in 1 hot wire to the trans (through a brake switch) and once it gets into OD, it automatically locks. Lots of guys run them that way, I just never liked it because there is a really big drop when it shifts into 4th if the converter lock right away, and it will bog the engine because it wont unlock until it shifts down to 3rd. Sounds like you have it figured out anyways.
I started with 4.10's and 28" tires, it was running around 1800 at 55 locked. That was just too low of RPM's for my cam/engine, and it did not drive well at that rpm. I changed to 4.56 and that made it a lot better. It runs a bit over 2000 at 55 now, around 2400 at 65.
I have mine set up so it won't lock until it hits 55 MPH and unlocks automatically at 50, anything under that and it gets a bit bucky. I also have a vacuum switch that will kill the lockup if I get below 5 or 7" of vacuum (starting to put your foot into it) cant remember the exact number. Then as you let up on the pedal (provided you are over 55 mph) it will relock, but not immediately, as there is a vacuum delay valve before my switch, that keeps it from cycling on/off rapidly if you are on the edge of the switch setting.
I also have a toggle that allows me to kill all those controls and run everything manually. Then I can hit a switch and lock the converter in any gear at any throttle position. I lock the converter on the drag strip when it hits 5,500 in 3rd gear, this drops me down a few hundred RPM and carries me through the traps around 6600. I found by locking the converter, you gain from 1-2 MPH and lose a tenth or two off you times.
I would recommend you find out exactly how he has the lockup set up for you, and do the internal wiring correctly before you install it. That way you can plan ahead for multiple senarios and make changes with simple external wiring. (vs pulling the pan to change something) I changed how mine was setup a bunch of times until it worked the way I felt was best. It may seem like a minor detail to you now, but it totally affects how the car drives.
Once you find out how your guy has it, I would gladly help you with a wiring diagram to save you all the headaches I went though.
SShink said
Feb 26, 2011
Thanks Winston. I'll have to talk to Master Trans again to find out exactly what he did. When I picked up the trans there wasn't an electrical connector anymore, so I asked about that and they told me they removed all the electronics and converted it to a pressure driven system. I know enough about this stuff to be dangerous...
We also talked about when driving around town under 45 mph, I will probably just leave it in 3rd gear (non-OD) and then I can manually put it in OD when I'm at higher speeds. I bought the Shiftworks conversion kit to keep the stock auto staple shifter/console that also includes the clear bezel that will have 1, 2, 3, and OD positions.
SShink said
Feb 26, 2011
I started the teardown and rebuild of the carb today, and found the reason that the car was running so rich (new plugs were fouled with less than 100 miles and the burned exhaust valve didn't help either...).
One of the needles/floats was stuck in the fully open position so fuel was dumping in and never stopped. The needle/float was so stuck that I think it has been this way for a very long time. See the pics that show how I found the floats when I pulled off the top of the carb.
I've got the carb disassembled, the housings cleaned, and will clean the small parts, install the new electric choke (the choke plate was wired open as was a manual choke without any linkage) and reassemble it.
Thanks Winston. I'll have to talk to Master Trans again to find out exactly what he did. When I picked up the trans there wasn't an electrical connector anymore, so I asked about that and they told me they removed all the electronics and converted it to a pressure driven system. I know enough about this stuff to be dangerous...
We also talked about when driving around town under 45 mph, I will probably just leave it in 3rd gear (non-OD) and then I can manually put it in OD when I'm at higher speeds. I bought the Shiftworks conversion kit to keep the stock auto staple shifter/console that also includes the clear bezel that will have 1, 2, 3, and OD positions.
Yeah, I would be real curious to know how they did it, I haven't heard of that before.
Make sure you set those floats correctly.
Lost in the 60s said
Feb 27, 2011
Somebody really messed that float up. The flange that the needle rides on needs to be bent back perpendicular to the float and the tang that sits against the seat barrel needs to be bent towards the float to prevent the needle from opening that far and jamming again. The spec sheet lists a drop down measurement for that tang just for that purpose. I would also submerge the float first to be sure it doesn't leak at the soldered seam. It appears to have been working correctly at one time but since it's out now, use all precaution on re-install.....but you know that...
SShink said
Feb 27, 2011
Carb is back together and everything checks out mechanically. The floats have been reset and everything cleaned up. I hooked the electric choke to 12 volts and got it adjusted.
The internals have been cleaned up and look like new, so hopefully everthing works as well on the dyno!
More parts due to show up tomorrow thanks to the man in the brown truck, so will try to do a little more this week.
Well Stan this should be interesting to compare your dyno results to gearlube's. Gearlube's made 375 horse 410 tq and his cam is pretty close to yours. The cam in his engine is 229/236 with 530/524 lift compared to your 230/230 with 513/513. Your intake manifolds are about the same, both running 750 carbs, the only real difference I can see is compression.
SShink said
Mar 2, 2011
67ss wrote:
Well Stan this should be interesting to compare your dyno results to gearlube's. Gearlube's made 375 horse 410 tq and his cam is pretty close to yours. The cam in his engine is 229/236 with 530/524 lift compared to your 230/230 with 513/513. Your intake manifolds are about the same, both running 750 carbs, the only real difference I can see is compression.
I think I've got just a few more cubes due to my 402 being bored 0.030 over from the factory plus another 0.030, but it shouldn't make that much difference.
Are the heads similar? I don't know what his are.
I'm also probably going to have it dyno'd with the test headers so that they can monitor the exhaust temps per cylinder during the cam break in and dyno pulls instead of using stock exhaust manifolds. I can back off 15-20 HP from the dyno number by using stock manifolds.
I'm ready to schedule the dyno appointment, but waiting to hear on another job opportunity later this week, which will determine what I do with my vacation. If I don't get the job offer, I want to schedule the dyno for next Thursday the 10th. I'll keep everyone posted.
jim larson said
Mar 2, 2011
SShink wrote:
67ss wrote:
Well Stan this should be interesting to compare your dyno results to gearlube's. Gearlube's made 375 horse 410 tq and his cam is pretty close to yours. The cam in his engine is 229/236 with 530/524 lift compared to your 230/230 with 513/513. Your intake manifolds are about the same, both running 750 carbs, the only real difference I can see is compression.
I think I've got just a few more cubes due to my 402 being bored 0.030 over from the factory plus another 0.030, but it shouldn't make that much difference.
Are the heads similar? I don't know what his are.
I'm also probably going to have it dyno'd with the test headers so that they can monitor the exhaust temps per cylinder during the cam break in and dyno pulls instead of using stock exhaust manifolds. I can back off 15-20 HP from the dyno number by using stock manifolds.
I'm ready to schedule the dyno appointment, but waiting to hear on another job opportunity later this week, which will determine what I do with my vacation. If I don't get the job offer, I want to schedule the dyno for next Thursday the 10th. I'll keep everyone posted.
Interested in hearing your results, my engine is a 70 402 block .030 over, stock 66 exhaust manifolds, stock 66 iron heads, stock 66 iron intake, 66 stock holley carb, static cr 9.9 and dynamic cr 8.2. Forgot the specifics of the cam, something like ,544 lift for both intake and exhaust.
-- Edited by jim larson on Wednesday 2nd of March 2011 08:53:34 AM
Bryan, let me know when you bring it down and you can come over to the 'cave' for a cold one or two if you have to leave it with John. I'm less than a mile from Master Trans.
Wonder why he doesn't want the converter to lock up. That's part of the process that gets the rpm down on the highway with the 4.11 gears....
It will still have the benefit of the 0.67 ratio 4th gear overdrive to lower the highway rpms with a non-lockup converter.
In my simple world... what this means is that below 2400 rpm the converter clutch will still slip some until it gets to that rpm and then it's functionally locked for full power transfer. With the electronic 'lockup' converters they use an electronic circuit to determine when to have a locked up condition on the converter.
The non-electronic lockup is what was used many years prior to the electronic lock-ups, so the technology works. This setup should be pretty good because at 65 mph, the calculators show that I will be running at 2276 rpm which is just about perfect for full lockup. At 60 mph I'll be at 2100 rpm and at 70 I'll be at 2450 which is still 350rpm lower than a TH350 with 3.08 gears!!! And that's all with running a 26.5" tall rear tire, which is not all that tall (255/60/15)
And all this is WAY better than the 3500 rpm this car did at 65 mph with the 4.11's and TH400!!! I 'think' this combination with the really deep gears, better shift spacing on the 200-4R, and OD should make this a really fun combo to drive on the street and highway.
I'm sure I've oversimplified the non-lockup vs. lockup difference description and people with more trans knowledge will jump in.
If anyone wants to play with the rpm calculator, here's the link: http://www.ringpinion.com/Calc_RPM.aspx
-- Edited by SShink on Thursday 13th of January 2011 12:23:43 PM
-- Edited by SShink on Thursday 13th of January 2011 12
I'm gearing mine for 80.
Besides, Momma don't like the sound of a screaming big block going down the highway. I get comments like 'Is this thing going to blow up?' or 'Are we going to get there without breaking down?'
Good. You're right... I was starting to sound like one of those 'old' guys that's all about comfort and quiet rides (aka streetrodders-no offense to any on the forum
). Thanks for calling me on it. 
A normal converter is like two fans in a tube pointed at eachother. Switch one on and eventually the other will start to spin. The media is air. Same thing in a converter other than the medium is a viscous fluid.
- Eventually the "drive" fan will be spinning fast enough that the fluid can't slip by/through the "driven" fan anymore, and the two of them will be (for practical purposes) locked together by a fluid coupling, and turning the same speed. Up until this point of "lockup" there is torque multiplication due to the blade shape and viscous properties of the fluid.
- There will never be 100% power transfer because there is no mechanical link between the two fans - there will be some lost energy.
A lockup converter is exactly the same as a "normal" converter, but has a hydraulically operated clutch inside it. A disc of friction material on one "fan", and a flywheel surface on the other "fan". There is an electric solenoid in the valve body that allows/denies hydraulic fluid pressure to engage this clutch.
- At a time deemed proper by the engine computer, rpm, or other inputs the system will apply pressure to this circuit and the converter will be mechanically locked (the two fans mechanically connected). Exactly like a traditional clutch on a manual gearbox car. There is no slippage - 100% of engine power is delivered to the transmission.
Stall Speed, or lockup speed on a traditional converter is the rpm when the turbine & impeller (the two fans) achieve that point of "viscous coupling" and essential are turning at the same speed and there is no torque multiplication.
There's more to this (and more parts inside a converter) but this is a "101" explanation. This guy is more eloquent... Converter 101+
I knew I was leaving something out.
Mr. Peabody was the doggy who controlled the "Way-Back Machine" with Sherman...
"Mr. Wizard" was a guy in the '50s who hosted a TV show and authored some practical science books for kids, kinda like the "Beakman" series now.
The moniker "Mr. Wizard" has a special meaning to me. It was the nickname my step-father used to call me when an unusual problem needed a practical and economical solution. He or his friends (of varying levels of Dr. of, PHD., whatever) would be stumped on something and then he'd call me. I'd usually be able to come up with a solution involving the minimum of work and material, with the spec'd result.
I know a little bit about a lot of things... none of which has made me rich.
Or, there's always the 'Knows enough to be dangerous!'
Or, if you can wait until March/April I can take you for a ride and see if you like the non-lockup 200-4R version in my '72.
-- Edited by SShink on Friday 14th of January 2011 08
Nope... The locking inside the converter (clutch apply/release) is done hydraulically. The solenoid in the pan enables/disables a pressure circuit routed up through the input shaft. This fluid circuit applies/releases the clutch in the converter. The electrics are all in the pan.
Stan - talk to your trans guy about enabling lockup. It's not very difficult to wire up, requiring an on/off switch, and a different brakelight switch.
My old Camaro had 4:11s and 255/60R15s. I drove it from st peter to burnsville and back quite a bit when I was going to college. No radio and gear whine....... not fun.
-- Edited by seagrams72 on Friday 14th of January 2011 06
I also asked about an external trans cooler, and he said that with the 4 core BBC radiator it wouldn't need the external one. I'm going to try it with just the rad cooler and see how it works.
Here's the best I can describe what they did:
-Heat treated input drum (needed to strengthen it up to 500 hp)
-Shift kit
-Roller sprag low clutch
-Valve kit 700-R4
Hope to take the engine from a short block to a long block this weekend.
Would like to dyno it in the next couple of weeks if all works out...
Randy at Competition Engines gave me a bottle of the additive along with some assembly lube for the cam lobes and lifter bottoms. He was really cool to work with, answered ALL my questions, and will help me line up the dyno next door to his shop. I highly recommend working with him.
He said that they were Crane rockers and would be fine to re-use. He wasn't too keen on the 2 piece pushrods though as he said they could come apart.
He said I wouldn't lose anything with a motor around 400 hp by going with the stock rocker arms, so that's what I'm going to do for reliability and ease of repair.
Media blasted misc. parts/intake manifold at John D.'s yesterday, then JD, Kevin (Dashboard), Craig (Pushrod, and Tom (Gearlube) came over today and we took it from a short block to a long block.
Here's what we accomplished:
-Rear main seal R/R
-Much metal working done on the timing chain cover, oil pan, and misc. parts to make them flat enough for a granite surface table!
-Installed new cam & timing chain
-Installed oil pan gasket/pan & timing chain cover
-Installed freshly rebuilt heads
-Installed valve train and lashed same
-Pre-lubed the engine
That's where we stopped, so the pics with the valve covers, intake, carb, air cleaner are all mockups.
The exhaust manifolds are just mocked up for now but turned out great (thanks Frank)!
The next week will be spent touching up paint on the engine, installing the intake manifold, painting & installing some misc. parts.
I hope to take it to the dyno in the next week or three (have a week of vacation in a warmer place in the middle of that).
Thanks guys for all your help!!!!!
-- Edited by SShink on Sunday 30th of January 2011 07
Between you being the Pres and your motor we could refer to your garage as the Oval Head Office!
-- Edited by OscarZ on Monday 31st of January 2011 08:48:05 AM
The heads are the smaller oval port 3993820's that are original to this 402 engine. I've heard they aren't the best oval ports, but flow pretty good for the smaller ones.
Not sure what the compression ration is. Maybe 9 or 9.5:1?
You didn't miss anything. Most of this was in the thread about my burned exhaust valve: http://northstarchevelles.activeboard.com/index.spark?aBID=134267&p=3&topicID=39875135
Thanks Mike. I hope it runs great too!
Anyone from the club is welcome to come to the 'SMC'. I just wish folks were closer together, but I understand too. I may try to have an 'open house' this spring or summer some weekend so that members could drive over and we can have an informal gathering. No burnouts when leaving my place like past events though... my neighbors would string me from the highest tree!!!
I promise I'll behave
.
Usually they are hard to hide when they are right in front of your house or well marks leaving your driveway is basically being caught red handed. Everyone is saving their bias ply's for next time.
Good thing the SMC session went well, I was right by your place at UPull at the time. I'm getting my 200-4r parts Wednesday so I will be catching up.
-- Edited by seagrams72 on Monday 31st of January 2011 09
I picked up the parts that were powder coated tonight (pulleys, fan, radiator cover, alternator brackets) from SE Custom Powder Coating in Savage and they look great.
Planning on rebuilding the Edelbrock 750 cfm carb this weekend and need to get on the stick ordering the parts needed to install the engine/trans. I'm also going to clean the engine bay and hopefully get a couple of coats of paint on this weekend as well.
That counter will be at less than 2.5 months left tomorrow, so I got's to get going!
Maybe I confused people by saying it's a 'non-lockup convertor'. It does lock up but it's done dynamically instead of electronically. Maybe that makes sense?
I trust the trans builder as he's got a great reputation and yes, I'm going to instll the EZ kit and then drive it 1/2 mile over to his shop. I'll have Craig S. (Pushrod) and John D. come over to help with that part because they set up Craig's 200-4R from Bowtie Overdrives.
You're right that they used a trans pressure gauge to set everything up. I'll get it over to Master Trans and let them go through it and check the pressures before driving it.
What is your driveline setup with the 200-4R? What rear gear ratio do you have and what rpm are you running at 65 mph?
We also talked about when driving around town under 45 mph, I will probably just leave it in 3rd gear (non-OD) and then I can manually put it in OD when I'm at higher speeds. I bought the Shiftworks conversion kit to keep the stock auto staple shifter/console that also includes the clear bezel that will have 1, 2, 3, and OD positions.
One of the needles/floats was stuck in the fully open position so fuel was dumping in and never stopped. The needle/float was so stuck that I think it has been this way for a very long time. See the pics that show how I found the floats when I pulled off the top of the carb.
I've got the carb disassembled, the housings cleaned, and will clean the small parts, install the new electric choke (the choke plate was wired open as was a manual choke without any linkage) and reassemble it.
Yeah, I would be real curious to know how they did it, I haven't heard of that before.Make sure you set those floats correctly.
The internals have been cleaned up and look like new, so hopefully everthing works as well on the dyno!
More parts due to show up tomorrow thanks to the man in the brown truck, so will try to do a little more this week.
Well Stan this should be interesting to compare your dyno results to gearlube's. Gearlube's made 375 horse 410 tq and his cam is pretty close to yours. The cam in his engine is 229/236 with 530/524 lift compared to your 230/230 with 513/513. Your intake manifolds are about the same, both running 750 carbs, the only real difference I can see is compression
.
Are the heads similar? I don't know what his are.
I'm also probably going to have it dyno'd with the test headers so that they can monitor the exhaust temps per cylinder during the cam break in and dyno pulls instead of using stock exhaust manifolds. I can back off 15-20 HP from the dyno number by using stock manifolds.
I'm ready to schedule the dyno appointment, but waiting to hear on another job opportunity later this week, which will determine what I do with my vacation. If I don't get the job offer, I want to schedule the dyno for next Thursday the 10th. I'll keep everyone posted.
Interested in hearing your results, my engine is a 70 402 block .030 over, stock 66 exhaust manifolds, stock 66 iron heads, stock 66 iron intake, 66 stock holley carb, static cr 9.9 and dynamic cr 8.2. Forgot the specifics of the cam, something like ,544 lift for both intake and exhaust.
-- Edited by jim larson on Wednesday 2nd of March 2011 08:53:34 AM